Should term limit for China's presidency remain the same, be extended, or eliminated?

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
About the Hukou system. I get the feeling that we all agree that it will eventually be abolished or become "not matter" or unnecessary. Agree?

I have read the article
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, I actually think it is pretty good except these paragraphs which I believe sounds bit strange that leads people suspecting the author.

This is the arrangement that allows migrants from rural areas to work in cities across China, but does not afford them the same rights as urban-born dwellers.
Let's to be clear, rights are direct results of tax. Migrant workers do not pay equal tax as their city counterparts. Their social rights to healthcare and education etc. are in their registered home. The fact is that they work in a richer place, but the social service are covered by their poorer home region. That difference makes the picture bad.

But, that is not unique at all to Hukou system. It is almost everywhere including rich western Europe. For example, if my registered home is in city A but works in city B, My child can not go to the public school in city B unless city A is willing to pay the tuition at city B's price which could be out of the budget capability of city A. City A can simply refuse to do so. Of course, I have the "freedom" to buy a same-sized house in city B of double or triple price and change my "Hukou" to A. Unfortunately, most of the migrate workers have no such financial capacity.

In the end, question is "is Hukou more of the fault than money?" The root of the problem is not really Hukou itself, but the economical gap of both individual and region.

I know that they see the current arrangement as a major problem. But they do not want to confront it. Their reasoning is that abandoning the system altogether would impose an unsustainable burden on megacities such as Beijing and Shanghai.

Apparently, the author is aware of the reason of reluctance to abolish Hukou. Like it or not, that is the exact reason to NOT to produce megacity of mega slum like Rio de Jeneiro, or New Dehli. It is exactly the reason of preventing a development bottle-neck that caused "middle income trap" and other social mess in many developing countries. That is what Deng Xiaoping's "some get rich first, others follow" is about.

Still, my hunch is that something will have to change eventually. A two-tier system in which almost half the population enjoys Western levels of wealth while the rest have no right to health care or social security cannot survive another 15 years. And if this is obvious to me, then it must be obvious to the Chinese leadership, too.
The hunch is right, BUT the rest is totally off mark.
The rest have right to social security and health care, but less, NOT because they are forbidden but because their income is very low which leads to their tax contribution to both residing city and hometown being very low which leads to less services from both hometown and residing city. If Hukou is removed, their level of received service won't be better just because they are now legal residents in a slum in a rich city. Take a look at Rio and New Dehli.

Hukou is not much different from any other househood regulations in a "free" country. Its only difference is it fix a person's legal residence, discourage people to permanently settle in other places. A Beijing resident who works in Shanghai is equally affected by Hukou as much as a migrant worker from the poorest corner. The Beijing person will be well-off only because Beijing can provide equally good service as Shanghai.

The issue with the author is that as a westerner, "social justice" is above everything, while a Chinese who live in that country knows that reality of "justice does not come from the sky, but through process which will take time".

At the end, I think nobody here is supporting Hukou staying for ever, but rather many of us are discontent to the "obsession of hating Hukou" on the ground of ideological and political correctness and fairness. The author is a bit obsessed apparently. I must reiterate though, the rest of the article and overall as a whole is good.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
Hukou is not much different from any other househood regulations in a "free" country. Its only difference is it fix a person's legal residence, discourage people to permanently settle in other places. A Beijing resident who works in Shanghai is equally affected by Hukou as much as a migrant worker from the poorest corner. The Beijing person will be well-off only because Beijing can provide equally good service as Shanghai.

The issue with the author is that as a westerner, "social justice" is above everything, while a Chinese who live in that country knows that reality of "justice does not come from the sky, but through process which will take time".

Exactly!

Hukou is just a way to prevent people from moving where ever they want. While this may seem aborrent to people in developed nations, it makes a lot of sense to China.

The biggest difference between China and Western nations like US or Canada is that in China, poor people have much more opportunities for improving their lives.

In US/Canada, the really poor people already live in the cities. The countryside is for those who are relatively well off. The poor folk from inner city slums cannot improve their life by going to the country, so domestic population migration is very low.

If one wanted to make an accurate comparison with China, one would need to go across national borders. Look at the US and Mexico as a single entity, and one would immediately see the resemblance with the situation in China. Illegal immigrants are to the US what migrant workers are to China. The purpose of hukou is very much like the purpose of border controls.

The difference is that China is trying to make their migrant workers stay home by bringing economic opportunities to them. The US is trying to make illegal immigrants stay home by building walls on their border.
 

hkbc

Junior Member
About the Hukou system. I get the feeling that we all agree that it will eventually be abolished or become "not matter" or unnecessary. Agree?

I have read the article
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, I actually think it is pretty good except these paragraphs which I believe sounds bit strange that leads people suspecting the author.


Let's to be clear, rights are direct results of tax. Migrant workers do not pay equal tax as their city counterparts. Their social rights to healthcare and education etc. are in their registered home. The fact is that they work in a richer place, but the social service are covered by their poorer home region. That difference makes the picture bad.

But, that is not unique at all to Hukou system. It is almost everywhere including rich western Europe. For example, if my registered home is in city A but works in city B, My child can not go to the public school in city B unless city A is willing to pay the tuition at city B's price which could be out of the budget capability of city A. City A can simply refuse to do so. Of course, I have the "freedom" to buy a same-sized house in city B of double or triple price and change my "Hukou" to A. Unfortunately, most of the migrate workers have no such financial capacity.

In the end, question is "is Hukou more of the fault than money?" The root of the problem is not really Hukou itself, but the economical gap of both individual and region.



Apparently, the author is aware of the reason of reluctance to abolish Hukou. Like it or not, that is the exact reason to NOT to produce megacity of mega slum like Rio de Jeneiro, or New Dehli. It is exactly the reason of preventing a development bottle-neck that caused "middle income trap" and other social mess in many developing countries. That is what Deng Xiaoping's "some get rich first, others follow" is about.


The hunch is right, BUT the rest is totally off mark.
The rest have right to social security and health care, but less, NOT because they are forbidden but because their income is very low which leads to their tax contribution to both residing city and hometown being very low which leads to less services from both hometown and residing city. If Hukou is removed, their level of received service won't be better just because they are now legal residents in a slum in a rich city. Take a look at Rio and New Dehli.

Hukou is not much different from any other househood regulations in a "free" country. Its only difference is it fix a person's legal residence, discourage people to permanently settle in other places. A Beijing resident who works in Shanghai is equally affected by Hukou as much as a migrant worker from the poorest corner. The Beijing person will be well-off only because Beijing can provide equally good service as Shanghai.

The issue with the author is that as a westerner, "social justice" is above everything, while a Chinese who live in that country knows that reality of "justice does not come from the sky, but through process which will take time".

At the end, I think nobody here is supporting Hukou staying for ever, but rather many of us are discontent to the "obsession of hating Hukou" on the ground of ideological and political correctness and fairness. The author is a bit obsessed apparently. I must reiterate though, the rest of the article and overall as a whole is good.

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the Hukou, however, it is secondary to the point at hand which is that some folks seem to have a giant chip on their shoulder and can't tell the wood from the trees, preferring to live in a bubble where everything is a Chinese or Western conspiracy (from which ever perspective they're from, alleged "Chinese Nationalist" or "American Patriot") if that's their entire outlook on the world they should just sit back watch Fox News or read the Global Times, which ever's their poison, and just reinforce their preconceived ideas and prejudices, because there's never the need for any critical analysis it will always be slander or some giant conspiracy or humiliating put down.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the Hukou, however, it is secondary to the point at hand which is that some folks seem to have a giant chip on their shoulder and can't tell the wood from the trees, preferring to live in a bubble where everything is a Chinese or Western conspiracy (from which ever perspective they're from, alleged "Chinese Nationalist" or "American Patriot") if that's their entire outlook on the world they should just sit back watch Fox News or read the Global Times, which ever's their poison, and just reinforce their preconceived ideas and prejudices, because there's never the need for any critical analysis it will always be slander or some giant conspiracy or humiliating put down.

Sorry, but in order to do any critical analysis, you need to actually understand the issue first.

Making things up based on some cherry-picked data is not critical analysis, it's just propaganda.
 

hkbc

Junior Member
Sorry, but in order to do any critical analysis, you need to actually understand the issue first.

Making things up based on some cherry-picked data is not critical analysis, it's just propaganda.

And dumping on a whole article because you find a paragraph you don't like isn't cherry picking the data... or propaganda glasshouses and all that
 

solarz

Brigadier
And dumping on a whole article because you find a paragraph you don't like isn't cherry picking the data... or propaganda glasshouses and all that

False equivalence.

It is perfectly pertinent to criticize an entire thesis based on a single bad argument, if the argument shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject at hand.
 

Ryz05

Junior Member
I feel like an understanding of personality psychology and psychological types would be really helpful in this regard. The Chinese can pick someone like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Augustus as leader, if they really know what they are doing. On the other hand, if they don't have an understanding of psychology and personality types, then it can be disastrous for the country's stability, as China moves into Totalitarian Socialism.

An understanding of MBTI is a start. You can also check out these websites:

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D

Deleted member 15887

Guest
Looking back at this thread and the term limits change 3 years later, have any of your calculations or judgements changed or been validated or rejected regarding the implications for the removal of Xi's term limits? Expectations for future moves? Would be interesting to hear from older forum members, esp @Bltizo, @siegecrossbow, or @Deino if you have any perspectives.
 
D

Deleted member 15887

Guest
FWIW, I stumbled upon this article last year regarding Xi's succession process (paywalled though, if anyone with an AT subscription is kind enough to paste the full article in the thread, greatly appreciated):
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