Trade War with China

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icbeodragon

Junior Member
Here's a very good article. Enlightening on the inter dependency in global trade.

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LET’S TAKE A STEP BACK FROM THE TRADE WAR TANTRUMS
China and the United States has engaged in a massive game of chicken, one that presents a lose-lose scenario for consumers in both countries. Especially US soybeans farmers and Chinese livestock producers (and in turn, the Chinese consumer)

In a trade war, there are no winners, regardless of the rhetoric or tweets that are sent by one party or the other.

This week has been quite wild for soybean traders. Wednesday’s announcement that China would slap 25% tariffs on US soybeans fueled a massive selloff. However, soybean prices bounced back over the final two trading days as cooler heads prevailed.

President Donald Trump’s top economic adviser Larry Kudlow (he’s running out of economic advisers) has said that we aren’t in a trade war yet. Kudlow explained that China’s tariffs on US soybeans and other producers are just in proposal form. The markets took Kudlow at his word and soybean prices were recouped their losses.

Now, geopolitical risk and global trade have been the basis of my career and education for 20 years. I absolutely love talking about these issues, reading about these issues, and debating on the topics.

But the thing that too many people don’t understand is that the threat of a major geopolitical threat is always quite low. The noise surrounding the issue makes it seem like there is a 50-50 chance of anything happening, whether it’s a nuclear war or the collapse of NAFTA.

Political noise is the problem.

This week there are two key points that I would like to discuss with you.

• First, I want to discuss the real problem with Chinese-US soybeans trade; and
• Second, I want to show why US soybeans farmers can relax around this issue.

Let’s dig in.

Crowded Trades Don’t Last Forever
If you’re a soybean farmer, you’re exposed to what is known as a “crowded trade.”

This isn’t just a Wall Street term. It’s common in almost every area of business.

Do you remember when everyone was getting their real estate license in 2005?

Or why no one would be quiet about Bitcoin last year in 2017?

There were many, many people all buying into the same business in an effort to make money. And in a lot of cases… it was fast money.

House flipping made the real estate industry a fast way to make money.

Bitcoin buying and selling had the same frenzy of the Beanie Baby rage of the 1990s.

But not everything lasts forever.

The real estate market imploded in 2008. The Bitcoin bubble burst this year.

A popular trade around the Swiss currency being pegged to the Euro blew up a few years ago, and several hedge funds went under overnight. That same thing happened a few weeks ago with people and financial firms that were betting against volatility in the stock market.

It especially happens in the agricultural sector as well.

Five years ago, how many sorghum farmers did you know? This year, U.S. farmers were planting more and more of the feed grain because of the premium they could obtain from China.

“Selling soybeans to China” has been the mother of all crowded farming trades for a decade.

When someone says that farmers are in trouble because of the reliance on Chinese buying, one must wonder how and why this occurred in the first place.

Look at this chart.

2018-04-08-us-soybean-exports-country-percentage.png


Does this look like a stable situation for American farmers?

The U.S. ships more than half of its soybeans to China. And while that’s good for business and international cooperation, what exactly is the backup plan if something goes awry?

The U.S. is not diversified in its customer base.

For just a moment, forget trade tariffs.

What would happen if a war broke out in the South China Sea?

What would happen if a massive economic crisis hit China (thus reducing demand for soybean meal)?

Or what if there was another unknown event that no one has even considered (a Black Swan event).

All of these scenarios have real probabilities and even greater ramifications than a temporary trade spat.

They would create a real shock in Chinese demand.

But tariffs are not going to affect the reality that Chinese demand remains robust.

That’s why it’s important to explain why the net effect of these tariffs on US soybeans is basically nothing.

I doubt you’ll see someone point this out at the Wall Street Journal or on CNBC.

US Soybeans, Take a Deep Breath
The mainstream media’s job is to make you feel like you’re falling down a staircase and there are no handrails to grab. There is a lot of noise, and a lot of misinformed people who will pump up the volume.

They become self-proclaimed experts by reading a few articles on Wikipedia and then rifling off a list of outcomes that they perceive to be the final outcome.

The thing is, about 90% of this tariff tantrum is noise.

Right now, U.S. and Chinese officials are negotiating a deal between the countries. That goes unreported by many because the Chicken Little tale gets more attention.

Neither country wants a trade war. And neither nation can afford one.

For China, the proof of this argument is in the numbers.

The country will need to import more than 100 MMT of soybeans this year in order to meet demand from its surging soy oil and feed demand.

Now, we know that there are three major producer-exporters of soybeans: Brazil, the United States and Argentina.

Smaller exporters like Paraguay and the Ukraine combine for just 12% of global exports.

Now, if you’ve covered
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, you know that Argentina’s crop is in horrible condition due to drought conditions across the country. But even in an average year, Argentina is more of a soybean products exporter than a shipper of raw beans.

While China has threatened tariffs on the U.S., they have turned to Brazil to source their beans. While the country might have a crop around 119 MMT this year, it requires about 46 MMT to 48 MMT to meet domestic needs. About 49 MMT of Brazil’s exports go to China.

Karen Braun at Reuters projected that China will have a soybean deficit of about 31 MMT without US soybeans in the equation.[
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] So, where exactly will all of these beans come from? Again, they might be able to pick a few million tonnes from Paraguay, Ukraine and even Canada.

Or China could turn to replacement crops. They could maybe pick up canola, wheat, sorghum, DDGs, or even more barley. But none of these crops have the protein content desired by the feed lots across the country.

But there’s still a big gap, and China will have to take more costly steps to fill their quotas.

To start, it’s possible that China arrives in Brazil and can get that number higher. But they have to do it by bidding higher if they can capture – at most – another 8 MMT to 9 MMT of Brazilian beans.

But guess what has happened as they’ve pushed for more beans just with the threat of a trade war?

Premiums in Brazilian ports surged.

The sheer number of soybeans that China will demand is only going to drive up the price in South America. The same goes for prices in all of the other nations that could be potential sources of origin.

Meanwhile, given that soybeans are a global commodity with significant demand – other importers will turn to U.S. origin to meet their needs.

The reason why so many people have freaked out about the threat of a soybean tariff from China is because of that chart above.

The U.S. has relied on this crowded trade with China for a very long time.

But so long as our export trade groups get to work and start thinking about how Mexico or Japan might be interested in more US soybeans or maybe even trade directly with Argentina or Brazil as they look to increase their own exports to China, we’re going to see our crops find customers.

It’s very easy for the narrative to cause a temporary spike in blood pressure.

But I’ve seen this same type of saber-rattling in the past, and it’s important to keep your cool.

We’re not going to tell you want you want to hear, and we’re not going to use fear as a tactic to get you to click on our articles. We’ll tell you what you need to hear, even if that message is a simple as “don’t panic and enjoy your weekend.”

We’re here to give our analytics perspective and will happily debate anyone in the public sphere in a respectful manner.

So, let’s take a breather from the trade war rhetoric, okay?
 

icbeodragon

Junior Member
In perhaps related news?

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As U.S. and China trade tariff barbs, others scoop up U.S. soybeans

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4 MIN READ


CHICAGO (Reuters) - Escalating tensions between the United States and China have triggered a flurry of U.S. soybean purchases by European buyers, in one of the first signs that trade tariff threats lobbed between the world’s top two economies are disrupting global commodity trade flows.


FILE PHOTO: Soybeans being sorted according to their weight and density on a gravity sorter machine at Peterson Farms Seed facility in Fargo, North Dakota, U.S., December 6, 2017. REUTERS/Dan Koeck/File Photo
News of the sales, confirmed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture on Friday, helped to underpin benchmark Chicago Board of Trade soybean prices <0#S:> after U.S. President Donald Trump threatened to slap tariffs on an additional $100 billion of Chinese goods.

The USDA said 458,000 tonnes of U.S. soybeans were sold to undisclosed destinations, which traders and grains analysts said included EU soybean processors such as the Netherlands and Germany.

If the entire volume is confirmed to be going to the European Union, it would be the largest one-off sale to the bloc in more than 15 years, according to USDA data. The USDA could not immediately be reached for comment.

“We’re seeing a realignment of trade,” largely because the politics is driving up Brazilian soybean prices, said Jack Scoville, analyst with the Price Futures Group.


Traders and analysts said the unusual trade flows were likely to continue in the near term, benefiting U.S. Gulf Coast shippers and likely hurting exporters in the U.S. Pacific Northwest, the No. 2 bulk grain outlet that relies heavily on Chinese demand.

Trade tensions between Washington and Beijing have rattled markets over the past week. Soybean prices tumbled by as much as 5 percent after China threatened to levy extra duties on U.S. shipments, though the market ultimately ended the week down about 1 percent.

The United States is the second-largest soybean exporter in the world after Brazil. China is by far the top buyer, importing about two-thirds of all soybeans traded globally.


The big U.S. soybean sales come at a time when U.S. shipments are traditionally costlier than newly harvested soybeans shipped from Brazil, the world’s biggest exporter.

But accelerated buying of Brazilian beans by Chinese importers, weary of potentially paying steep tariffs on U.S. purchases, has sent Brazilian export premiums to historic highs.

Near-term soybean shipments from Brazil peaked near 200 cents above CBOT May soybean futures SK8 before pulling back to around 170 cents over by the end of the week, traders said. U.S. Gulf Coast shipments, by comparison, were only around 90 cents a bushel above futures.

“The Brazilian beans are likely going to go to China in the short run and the U.S. beans are available. With what’s happened to the price spreads, U.S. beans are sort of on sale for these buyers,” said Jim Sutter, CEO of the U.S. Soybean Export Council.

Some of the sales announced by USDA on Friday were initially booked as Brazilian shipments, but were switched to cheaper U.S. beans when Brazil’s prices spiked, traders said.


“U.S. prices got exceedingly cheap compared to Brazil,” said a U.S. trader who asked not to be named. “Some of this is outright new business. Some of it is arbitraging away from Brazil.”

The current-season shipments are slated for loading from May to July, they said, typically the height of Brazil’s export season and a low point for U.S. shipments.

“I think we’ll see more (U.S.) selling to some destinations in volumes that we don’t ordinarily see, at least in the short term until the Brazilian basis calms down,” Scoville said.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Here's a very good article. Enlightening on the inter dependency in global trade.

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That’s a nice theory in the article, but the author is forgetting his economic basics - soyabeans are not an indispensable commodity like oil.

Even with essential commodities like oil, a change in price results in a change in demand, consumption and supply.

American farmers might be ok for the upcoming harvest, given the short time left to make alternative arrangements, but if a trade war does kick off, expect China to take more permanent measures to reduce its reliance on imported American agricultural products.

China has always been hot on maintaining its agricultural viability as a matter of national security.

It has put of rural land reforms largely because of the plentiful and cheap availablity of imported foodstuffs. But something like a trade war with the US will be more than enough incentive for China to press ahead with the reforms and start consolidating its small farm holdings to allow for the kinds of large scale mechanised farming as done in the US.

This will be a costly and painful change, but as China’s rural population have moved to existing and newly built cities, it is inevitable as the traditional labour intensive small holdings farming method becomes increasingly unsustainable and unsuitable for the change Chinese population distribution.

Currently, much of China’s farmland sits under, or even unutilised as a result of a shortage of labour.

In the short term, that could be automatically alleviated if factory layoffs results in a sizeable proportion of China’s migrant population to return to their farms (this safetly switch function is one of the key reasons why China has been putting off land reform - if the land reform has been completed, these laid off workers would no longer have a back up plan to return to the farm, so would likely cause social problems unless China puts in place social security safety nets to cushion the blow, but that is something else China is reluctant to do, as it sees how much of a burden social security is on western developed economies).

This migration reversion will see Chinese domestic farm produce yields increase, reducing the Chinese driven global demand for things like soyabeans at source.

China is also very effective at mobilising China’s population to change their consumption behaviour, especially for an American started trade war. China will wage this trade war very much like how it would fight a conventional war, and get China’s consumers to voluntarily change their consumption patterns.

One should look at the areas China has singled out as clearly defined targets. If tarrifs don’t achieve the desired effects, expect the ordinary Chinese consumers to add their weight to the ‘fight’ but going out of their way to avoid buying American.

Obviously not everyone will pitch in, but enough will to have a profound impact on Chinese demand for America on goods.

Western analysts keeps protesting that China isn’t a market economy, but seem to forget what that means when it suits them.

It makes no sense to base their projections on how a market economy might respond to tarrifs and a trade war, when China has never been a market economy, nor is it likely to ever become one.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
This is excellent op/ed from CBC Canadian Broadcasting corp.I wish they did put this tariff in place It will hasten the day when China will become the biggest economy and leader in technology since now there is no hold bar they either swim or sink. It is a bit late trying to hold china's progress . 20 years ago it is still possible but now?. The horse has left the barn!
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China's trade war advantage is a huge and increasingly sophisticated economy: Don Pittis
Trump's push for $100B in new tariffs may help make his rival the world's biggest economy

Don Pittis · CBC News · Posted: Apr 06, 2018 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: April 6

fashion-china.jpg
A model presents a creation for a makeup styling show by Mao Geping at China Fashion Week in Beijing on March 26. A sophisticated consumer economy and growing personal income could mean a trade war will help propel the country of 1.4 billion people into first place. (Jason Lee/Reuters)
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As U.S. President Donald Trump threatens what many say is an unnecessary trade war with China, he may be creating an even more dangerous and powerful trade competitor.

Rather than cowing China into submission with trade threats, experts who study international trade say, Trump may instead be day when the Asian giant supersedes the United States as the world's most influential economy.hastening the

Trump has instructed the U.S. trade representative to consider slapping $100 billion US in additional tariffs on Chinese goods. The move comes a day after China issued a $50 billion list of U.S. goods, including soybeans and small aircraft, for possible tariff hikes.

There is a certain irony that the conditions that made the United States the world's undisputed economic leader, overcoming its British parent in the late 1800s, may now exist in China.

China's American example
"So how did our American cousins overtake us so spectacularly and for so long?," asked BBC reporter Iain Haddow in a
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. "Economies of scale and a single market had a lot to do with it."

The fact is, even long after the U.S. separated from Britain following its 1775 rebellion, the U.S. economy depended on the mother country for advanced technology and high-quality manufactured goods.

As late as the U.S. Civil War, the important market for cotton produced in the U.S. South by slave labour remained the fabric mills of the British Midlands. But that had already begun to change.


usa-southcarolina-civilwar.jpg
About the time of the U.S. Civil War, the country's dependence on British exports had begun to wane and a growing domestic economy gobbled up nearly everything it produced. (Randall Hill/Reuters)
But by the end of the war in 1865 not only had the U.S. population grown larger than Britain's, but as Haddow observes, U.S. technology on all fronts had begun to catch up. Soon it had exceeded that of Britain, signalled by the fact that U.S. factories were able to produce more goods with the same amount of labour — an increase in productivity.

And while the U.S. continued to produce and export, its own giant and growing domestic economy gobbled up the vast majority of everything it produced.

Wholly dependent
As Walid Hejazi, professor of international business at the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Business, points out, in some respects history may be repeating itself.

"Twenty-five years ago, China was wholly dependent on the U.S. and Europe as a market for their exports," says Hejazi.

But in that quarter of a century the Chinese economy has transformed itself at least as much as the U.S. did in a similar period in the 1800s.

Hejazi says a trade war is not something China wants; most analysts agree that tit-for-tat tariffs on both U.S and Chinese goods will create inflation for Chinese consumers while slowing the overall global economy on which China, the U.S. and Canada depend.



china-silkroad.jpg
Chinese President Xi Jinping shakes hands with Kenyan President Uhuru Kenyatta. China has a 'Belt and Road' plan to diversify its exports. (Uhuru Kenyatta/Reuters)
But in the long run that could well mean the main beneficiary of a full-fledged trade war will be China.

According to Hejazi, even unwanted, Trump's trade war will actually spur on the development of the Chinese economy, making it an even stronger competitor.

"Given there is a trade war, it can push China into doing things that could really help it over the longer term in terms of diversifying itself into Asia, into other markets, but also developing its domestic economy."

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As economic commentator Martin Wolf recently pointed out in London's Financial Times, "consumption is at last becoming the most important driver of demand in the Chinese economy."

Unlike the other so-called Asian tigers such as South Korea and Singapore, as domestic demand grows China can become less dependent on exports. Like the U.S., it will have the advantage of "economies of scale and a single market."


china-economy.jpg
In 25 years China has transformed itself into a technological powerhouse, filing for more patents than any other country. (Reuters)
Canadian China scholar Jia Wang says the country is well on its way to substituting Chinese made goods for high-technology imports, a sore point with Trump, who says China has used joint venture rules to steal U.S. technology.

Wang, deputy director of the China Institute at the University of Alberta, says Beijing still depends on the U.S. for top quality exports such as Boeing's jetliners, but China has begun production of its own aircraft. A trade war, she says, will only encourage China to increase import substitution.

Patent leader
But just as when U.S. innovation overtook Britain by producing things like the cotton gin and assembly line manufacturing, China's surge of investment has made the country a technological powerhouse in its own right.

"For the past two years at least, China has filed for more patents … than any other country," says Wang.


She says investment in its own intellectual property is one of the reasons the country may be willing to come to terms with the U.S. on what is one of the most sensitive issues in trade talks, patent protection. But it is also a sign the horse may be out of the barn, since in many areas China has become a technological leader.

Tit for tat
If China could begin to replace American goods such as Boeing jets, couldn't the U.S. just do the same thing with the Chinese products it imports? Wang says that could be harder.

"For the U.S. it's the massive amount of consumer goods — the clothing, the shoes, the household electronics, the computers and the phones."

Wang says the sheer volume of imports of inexpensive Chinese goods purchased by lower-class and poor Americans makes it almost impossible for the U.S. to replace those imports by making them at home.

"If suddenly the price goes up by 50 per cent, can they still afford it? And that's the real danger."
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
When the US stock market dived at Trump's every declaration to slap tariffs, news came out that there were talks going on between the US and China. The stock market calmed down. Guess what? No such meetings were happening according to the Chinese. US officials lied just to calm down the market. I wouldn't be surprised that news stories, fake or exaggerated, are coming out that there are new buyers for soybeans just to keep US farmers happy.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
2 million job will be lost in US if tariff is implemented Brooking institute estimate. Did those trumph advisor know the implication of their obsession with China?
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More than 2 million jobs could be at risk if China’s tariffs are implemented
By
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April 06, 2018 | 3:00 PM
GettyImages-937951836.jpg

This picture taken on March 22, 2018 shows a Chinese flag fluttering in front of the Shanghai Gaoqiao Company Refinery in Shanghai. - JOHANNES EISELE/AFP/Getty Images
Pork, soybeans, fruit, small aircrafts, wine. These are just a few of the 106 American products that might be subject to future tariffs, the Chinese government warned on Wednesday. As for when the 25 percent tariffs would take effect, China said that depends on President Donald Trump and his threat to place similar tariffs on Chinese goods entering the U.S.

The suggested tariffs are just that: suggestions — or threats, if you will. However, they are already having an impact on the U.S. economy by creating a lot of uncertainty for various industries.

What’s more, the potential tariffs are wide ranging and encompass multiple industries that employ about 2,103,026 people nationally,
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, senior fellow and policy director of the Metropolitan Policy Program at the Brookings Institution. And it’s not just workers in the Rust Belt, either. Muro points out that about 1,062,455 of the jobs at risk are held by people who voted for Trump, while another 976,585 are held by Hillary Clinton voters. These voters live in 2,783 counties across the U.S. that would be impacted if the Chinese tariffs go into effect. About 2,279 (82 percent) of those counties were called for Trump in the 2016 presidential election.

Those who support President Trump’s tough stance on trade with China say that tariffs could
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at home and allow American producers to be more competitive, leading to more job creation.

“It's certainly true that this could lead to a period of negotiation that leads to a new normal in which maybe some industries do better or it leads to negotiations that address some of the real problems in the Chinese-American relationship that might be good for industries,” Muro said. However, he added, this also launches “a period of uncertainty for U.S. trade policy, on the one hand, but also for particular industries in particular counties.”



image001_0.jpg

Counties with the darkest color would see the highest share of jobs impacted. Chinese tariffs are “shrewd and layered” as they affect both red counties in the manufacturing heartland and blue counties that produce nuts, wine and pharmaceuticals, according to Muro. - Courtesy of Mark Muro/Brookings Institution
For more on how the potential tariffs would impact U.S. industries, read the rest of our interview with Muro below:

Marketplace: Looking at this map of how different areas might be affected by the Chinese tariffs, what’s the main takeaway?

First it's important to note that these are, at this point, kind of performance art. There's positioning. There's threats. The Chinese tariffs are not yet real. And even if these happened, not all of these jobs would be lost. Not all of the jobs that we highlight as being potentially at risk would be lost. This is very much the first stage. With that said though, you see a very interesting map of the U.S. economy here. You know, it seems that the Chinese are very astute about what kind of industries and famous brand products come from where. So you see things as diverse as Boeing jets to Napa Valley wine are involved. It's very interesting and diverse. It seems to me that the Chinese have a good feel for how America works and that's visible here.

So you think they picked very particular items to target for their tariffs?

I do. I think this shows a good amount of knowledge and they've pushed a lot of hot buttons whether it's in the industrial heartland with potential tariffs on cars to high performance aircraft to picturesque agricultural places such as the Central Valley in California or even hog slaughter all across the Midwest or corn farming. A lot of things are implicated and it seems that it's more than just random. These are products that sort of loom large in the American imagination and they bug people. Also, it's not just red America. It's also blue America. All of the auto supply chain is very much Trump's Midwestern base. You do have wine in California or apples and jets in Washington state, which are states with blue Senators.

When we talk about the jobs that might be lost, are we looking at some particular areas that might be more affected than others?

I think that disruptions to the auto industry could be very disturbing to people. It's a large industry, a lot rides on it. It has a big supply chain that extends into so many communities. The disruptions of auto really can stir up the country.



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China's new 301-related retaliatory tariffs go well beyond wine and ginsing to get serious about America's industrial base.

Here's employment in the affected manufacturing industries:
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B.I.B.

Captain
When the US stock market dived at Trump's every declaration to slap tariffs, news came out that there were talks going on between the US and China. The stock market calmed down. Guess what? No such meetings were happening according to the Chinese. US officials lied just to calm down the market. I wouldn't be surprised that news stories, fake or exaggerated, are coming out that there are new buyers for soybeans just to keep US farmers happy.
The buyers may not be end users but traders?
 
now I read
One more question on Sino-US trade tensions: What is China's next countermeasure?
2018-04-09 11:52 GMT+8
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“There are a couple of measures that China can do in response,” said Dr. John Gong, a professor at the University of International Business and Economics spoke with CGTN, about what countermeasures will China take in response to Trump's tariffs.

Gong said that the Ministry of Commerce is already comparing the list of retaliations to potential tariffs on another 100 billion US dollars of Chinese exports to the US.

In Gong’s opinion, we can look for other means as counter measures, for example, the foreign exchange rate and US treasury bills, which can be potentially used to leverage our bargaining position.

In addition to these, Gong said the cooperate America-China operation is 300 billion to 500 billion US dollars's business. However, he pointed out that if it comes to the end of the day we have to hit that, it will be very sad. So, hopefully, we don’t need to go to that stage.
 

advill

Junior Member
now
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President Xi and I will always be friends, no matter what happens with our dispute on trade. China will take down its Trade Barriers because it is the right thing to do. Taxes will become Reciprocal & a deal will be made on Intellectual Property. Great future for both countries!

What idiotic comments by Trump. He doesn't realise the implications of his actions on Tariffs on China. He needs to understand the Chinese culture & ways of reciprocity - you bash China & the Chinese will reciprocate hard. The biggest problem is Trump himself, he thinks he knows how to negotiate - "good cop - later bad cop" style. That may work with his past business ventures. He needs experienced advisers NOT "yes-men". The Trade War will continue and be disastrous for all IF the Trump Administration stubbornly adheres to its confounded actions. The US Congress & American businesses at large have to curtail the "bravado" actions of their President, otherwise they will pay a very heavy price for themselves & for their constituent state businesses.
 
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