052C/052D Class Destroyers

Iron Man said:

Who says a high intensity conflict will always be within range of land-based fixed-wing ASW? Nobody. Which means that Chinese frigates and destroyers would benefit from having more than 1 helicopter.

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Look at the likely scenarios.

In a low intensity conflict, it doesn't matter if a ship has 1 helicopter or 2 helicopters. It's just a low-threat environment.

In a high intensity conflict, China's core interests are in the Western Pacific next to airbases on the Chinese mainland. This calculation is not going to change until the Chinese Navy grows much larger and can credibly contest the far seas, which will be at least another 10 years.

In the next 10 years, we will likely see 20-30 Type-55 destroyers go into service. And these ships are designed for long-distance operations and have space for 2 helicopters.

The existing frigates and destroyers (with just 1 helicopter) can still be employed in the Western Pacific with MPA aircraft which are more cost effective than helicopters in most scenarios in the Western Pacific.

No it definitely matters if you have 1 or 2 helicopters

Why does USN Areligh Burke carry 2? One of the longest DDG runs in modern naval history and twin hangers? Why for fun ? No because that's why is required after decades of operational experience

When one chopper lands you lose your greatest asset, that's why you need two to keep eyes under the water 24/7

And trust me if you detect a enemy submarine there is no low threat high threat environment, you will be doing your anti submarine sweep 24/7 until you find that sub

Very silly arguments against 2 chopper ASW from some members

asif iqbal said:

No it definitely matters if you have 1 or 2 helicopters

Why does USN Areligh Burke carry 2? One of the longest DDG runs in modern naval history and twin hangers? Why for fun ? No because that's why is required after decades of operational experience

When one chopper lands you lose your greatest asset, that's why you need two to keep eyes under the water 24/7

And trust me if you detect a enemy submarine there is no low threat high threat environment, you will be doing your anti submarine sweep 24/7 until you find that sub

Very silly arguments against 2 chopper ASW from some members

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No.

The Arleigh Burke carries 2 helicopters because they frequently operate independently far from any supporting land-based aircraft.

In a low-intensity conflict, there are no submarines to worry about.

And as stated previously, in a high-intensity conflict, this is realistically going to occur in the Western Pacific. So land-based aircraft will be able to prosecute submarines far more effectively than a helicopter could. So the optimal balance between helicopters and fixed wing MPA shifts towards the latter.

AndrewS said:

Look at the likely scenarios.

In a low intensity conflict, it doesn't matter if a ship has 1 helicopter or 2 helicopters. It's just a low-threat environment.

In a high intensity conflict, China's core interests are in the Western Pacific next to airbases on the Chinese mainland. This calculation is not going to change until the Chinese Navy grows much larger and can credibly contest the far seas, which will be at least another 10 years.

In the next 10 years, we will likely see 20-30 Type-55 destroyers go into service. And these ships are designed for long-distance operations and have space for 2 helicopters.

The existing frigates and destroyers (with just 1 helicopter) can still be employed in the Western Pacific with MPA aircraft which are more cost effective than helicopters in most scenarios in the Western Pacific.

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You need to start thinking medium to long term. By the time the 054Bs (or whatever) come out, they will be in service for 30+ years. if you think the PLAN will still consider itself to be limited to the Western Pacific in that timeframe, you are not thinking far enough ahead.

Iron Man said:

You need to start thinking medium to long term. By the time the 054Bs (or whatever) come out, they will be in service for 30+ years. if you think the PLAN will still consider itself to be limited to the Western Pacific in that timeframe, you are not thinking far enough ahead.

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I am thinking ahead.

The existing destroyers and frigates with 1 helicopter can still be assigned primarily to the Western Pacific under friendly air cover. We're talking about roughly 30x Type-54 Frigates + 20x Type-52 destroyers.

The same rationale applies to the numerous Type-56 corvettes which were purposely designed without a helicopter, and to operate in the Western Pacific under friendly air cover.

And in the next 20 years, I reckon China will build 50-60 Type-55 destroyers with 2 helicopters. It is those ships which will be the primary vessels for global presence.

So the PLAN hasn't made a mistake by only specifying a single helicopter for its existing ships.

AndrewS said:

I am thinking ahead.

The existing destroyers and frigates with 1 helicopter can still be assigned primarily to the Western Pacific under friendly air cover. We're talking about roughly 30x Type-54 Frigates + 20x Type-52 destroyers.

The same rationale applies to the numerous Type-56 corvettes which were purposely designed without a helicopter, and to operate in the Western Pacific under friendly air cover.

And in the next 20 years, I reckon China will build 50-60 Type-55 destroyers with 2 helicopters. It is those ships which will be the primary vessels for global presence.

So the PLAN hasn't made a mistake by only specifying a single helicopter for its existing ships.

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ROFLMAO

Iron Man said:

ROFLMAO

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You can laugh by all means.

60x Type-55 over the next 20 years is only 3 per year, which simply matches the US.

Remember that China is already the world's largest trading nation with most of that trade being seaborne. And historically such a nation also ends up building the world's largest navy.

And the China most definitely has the financial and industrial capacity to continue building 3 large AEGIS destroyers per year as it is currently.

After all, China is already a larger manufacturing nation that the USA, plus has a significantly larger economy in terms of actual output.

AndrewS said:

You can laugh by all means.

60x Type-55 over the next 20 years is only 3 per year, which simply matches the US.

Remember that China is already the world's largest trading nation with most of that trade being seaborne. And historically such a nation also ends up building the world's largest navy.

And the China most definitely has the financial and industrial capacity to continue building 3 large AEGIS destroyers per year as it is currently.

After all, China is already a larger manufacturing nation that the USA, plus has a significantly larger economy in terms of actual output.

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Here the rest of us are debating between 15-20 and 20-30 055s while there you are talking about 60 055s. So yes, a mild chuckle escapes me. These reasons you give here are all just hand-waving blowhardisms that are neither here nor there, and certainly don't legitimize your outsized predictions about the 055.

Having two ASW helos available is a paramount capability...anywhere.

The PLAN, I am relatively certain, will, in the case of ever thinking that there might be an ASW danger...and contrary to what you may think, there is always that threat.

he US regularly has several LA F Light III or Virginia class subs at sea patrolling the western Pacific.

So, the PLAN will probably have two DDGs or FFGs, or one of each, at a minimum to ensure that they can keep two helos in the air.

That works...but only in so far as there is a single sub threat. What if the US is operating two subs in conjunction with one another for this very reason?

The PLAN has built earlier vessels with two helo capable...but only a couple. Now they are going to build a good number of Type 055s. This will help.

But, IMHO, you are going to find future FFGs and DDGs allowing for two for these very reasons.

Unless the land based ASW aircraft are already in the air and available at short notice, they may arrive too late.

Anyhow, lets just all hope and pray that all of these theories are not put to real life threat. That is the best we can hope for.

So, do you think that PLAN will stop at 18 Type 052D?