Chinese Aviation Industry

b787

b787

Captain
tphuang said:
it's not political. China can learn a lot from Russia still in civil aviation in design, testing and production. China concluded it has more to gain by doing this as a partnership rather than going alone. I think COMAC would know this better than armchair QBs in this forum.

MS-21 and SSJ both have very advanced elements in their design, which shows Russia still has a lot to offer in civil aviation
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i agree with you in most things but i do not think is about Technology Transfers the main reason for partnership, it is about the percentage it can build of the aircraft.

China could go and become supplier for western aircraft makers, well in many ways it already supply parts to Airbus and Boeing projects, but as a minor supplier, with Russia it becomes a much much larger supplier, 50% of the aircraft will be build by China.

Russia will not allow tech transfers that can threat its suppliers to the project, for example if Russia gets the PD-14 derivative engine by 2025, and it is selected for the project, it will not share technology beyond what it does not threat its aircraft makers.

What i mean neither China or Russia will give tech transfers, the aircraft is build by a mosaic of suppliers, who are chosen and build parts as minor suppliers, i do not discard tech transfers, but to be honest i doubt they will happen as the engine of the program, they will select suppliers that already can do the things without tech transfers and build the jet that way, the Chinese will not do tech transfer and Russia the same, they will only supply the parts custom made
 
b787

b787

Captain
Orthan said:
Of course the main reason for this joint project is the gathering of know-how from the part of china. But IMO there is also a certain intention from the part of china to get russia to its side. Most of all, i think that for these reasons, i dont think that china will get this plane in numbers, if it get it at all. I dont think that china will want to share its huge civil aircraft market with russia.

And i think that russia know this.
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in real life things are more complex, if you look at the suppliers of Embraer E-jets, you will see each supplier supplies different things, and these are big suppliers, for example EMTEQ does not share tech with Latecoere, same Eaton doe not share tech with Zodiac aerospace, same Diehl does not share tech with Sirio Panel
embraer-may-2015-book-ri-20-638.jpg


Well in the Sino-Russian wide body civil aircraft project it is the same but instead of western companies like in the case of E-Jets, they will be Russian and Chinese suppliers, they do not share any tech they simply build things custom made or off the shelf, so practically Russia and China will not share a lot of tech, they will just coordinate how to build it and each supplier company supplies the parts without tech transfers
 
tphuang

tphuang

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b787 said:
i agree with you in most things but i do not think is about Technology Transfers the main reason for partnership, it is about the percentage it can build of the aircraft.

China could go and become supplier for western aircraft makers, well in many ways it already supply parts to Airbus and Boeing projects, but as a minor supplier, with Russia it becomes a much much larger supplier, 50% of the aircraft will be build by China.

Russia will not allow tech transfers that can threat its suppliers to the project, for example if Russia gets the PD-14 derivative engine by 2025, and it is selected for the project, it will not share technology beyond what it does not threat its aircraft makers.

What i mean neither China or Russia will give tech transfers, the aircraft is build by a mosaic of suppliers, who are chosen and build parts as minor suppliers, i do not discard tech transfers, but to be honest i doubt they will happen as the engine of the program, they will select suppliers that already can do the things without tech transfers and build the jet that way, the Chinese will not do tech transfer and Russia the same, they will only supply the parts custom made
Click to expand...
I didn't say anything about transfer of technology.

civilian aviation is different from military aviation. A lot of the most sensitive components like engine are supplied by other countries. It's a big ordeal to piece everything together, to get all the suppliers to supply their components on time, to assemble everything on schedule and keeping cost down. There is just a lot less risk in the project if China and Russia go through with it together. Especially with something like widebody that's much more complex than narrowbody. The design, development process, the testing process and ramping up production, selecting suppliers, getting suppliers up to speed, building the most efficient assembly process. That's where the difficulties lie. Of course, there is also the support and servicing afterward that's not easy for both China and Russia by themselves, since they've had very little experience in this.
 
D

dingyibvs

Junior Member
tphuang said:
it's not political. China can learn a lot from Russia still in civil aviation in design, testing and production. China concluded it has more to gain by doing this as a partnership rather than going alone. I think COMAC would know this better than armchair QBs in this forum.

MS-21 and SSJ both have very advanced elements in their design, which shows Russia still has a lot to offer in civil aviation
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that China has things to learn from Russia, what I do doubt is whether Russia is willing teach.
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
dingyibvs said:
I don't doubt that China has things to learn from Russia, what I do doubt is whether Russia is willing teach.
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When does a partnership automatically equate to transfer of technology?
Basically a joint venture to develop a plane results in both companies being able to profit in selling the product. Unless there is something COMAC can uniquely provide to the project I doubt the Russians will share their technological advantage either.
At the end you need something to give in order to gain unless COMAC is willing to fund 100% of the project which defeats the reason in a joint project.
 
b787

b787

Captain
tphuang said:
I didn't say anything about transfer of technology.

civilian aviation is different from military aviation. A lot of the most sensitive components like engine are supplied by other countries. It's a big ordeal to piece everything together, to get all the suppliers to supply their components on time, to assemble everything on schedule and keeping cost down. There is just a lot less risk in the project if China and Russia go through with it together. Especially with something like widebody that's much more complex than narrowbody. The design, development process, the testing process and ramping up production, selecting suppliers, getting suppliers up to speed, building the most efficient assembly process. That's where the difficulties lie. Of course, there is also the support and servicing afterward that's not easy for both China and Russia by themselves, since they've had very little experience in this.
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this kind of projects is not tech transfers what matters but costs and share percentage of the project what matters.
Since an aircraft is made by hundred of suppliers, and they have thousands if not million of parts, the suppliers bid what they can do, if UAC can build the wings with composite wing structures manufactured by AeroComposit with out-of-autoclave resin infusion technology, as they do for MS-21, i doubt they will transfer the technology to China, they will build the wings and ship them to China for assembly, in reality China can build the jet without Russia, the fact they can make the Y-20 and c-919 shows they can make it, however the problem is always make money, to make money from the project you need the very best aircraft.


Russia and China went for the joint venture to allow hundred of suppliers to bid for the project from both countries, and a bi-national commission will select the best for the project from both countries.
UAC and Comac will do studies and decided who will built what and from that each team will find the suppliers.

Both teams will give ideas, and at the end set and settle for a chosen aerodynamic and structural design.
 
b787

b787

Captain
dingyibvs said:
I don't doubt that China has things to learn from Russia, what I do doubt is whether Russia is willing teach.
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According to Russian reports, they will select suppliers from both countries and encourage joint ventures between some suppliers. A joint venture for example for a landing gear can select different suppliers from both countries or different parts from two suppliers to make the aircraft. So is not that will share tech transfers but they will share industrial cooperation in terms of the selection of who build what or who invest in what company, but is not necessarily that they will do technology transfers per se
 
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jobjed

Captain
manqiangrexue said:
"Boeing & Airbus: Stop Squabbling, Take On China's Comac"
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Oh, feel the fear in this article. Gordon Chang thinks he's calling a meeting of the White Allegiance of Aircraft Producers to fight off the yellow peril LOL The irony...
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At this point, I really wonder if this moron only says what he does because Fox news pays him big money to shit on his heritage, or if he's actually mentally trashed.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
jobjed said:
At this point, I really wonder if this moron only says what he does because Fox news pays him big money to shit on his heritage, or if he's actually mentally trashed.
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He's the king of self-loathing Asians who think that trash-talking his mother country will make him more white. He's so desperate to be on a team that he can't possibly be on that he's making a fool out of himself running out on the field in their team jersey during the game yelling, "Pass! I'm open!" and they're just looking at him like 'What the hell crept up in here today?' LOL He's over-compensating like Hitler did for not being Aryan, except Chang doesn't have the flare and infectious energy. It's really more sad than anything else.
 
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