Chinese Martial Arts Thread

vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
PanAsian said:
Wow, I take offense to that extreme statement, that's just your ignorance and prejudice then.
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Now I go back and read my post again, I do see that it is a little extreme. I apologize for that.

However, to be honest, I snapped because I was a little offended by the statement that Chinese medicine is "scientifically proven". As a scientist myself, I fight everyday to maintain a good scientific integrity, unbiased investigation with well-designed controls. I went through close to a decade of formal training (PhD and postdoctoral fellowship) to learn various ways to minimize bias in my research. Chinese medicine, to be honest, is the exact opposite of everything science stands for. I don't hate Chinese medicine but am immensely annoyed by it. Many ways Chinese medicine doctors use to convince people of their legitimacy are the same methods used by con artists to scam people.

Even experts of Chinese medicine try to separate Chinese medicine from science. Many even argue that Chinese medicine predates science...
 
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vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
subotai1 said:
The recipes for traditional medicine are also being tested and a lot of it is found to have either known or new compounds in it. These are being synthesized and mapped to get down to the effective base.
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Extracting chemicals from natural substances for medicinal use is a common practice in all cultures, not unique to Chinese medicine.

In fact, the simple fact of attempting to "extracting compounds" is against the fundamental principles of Chinese medicine. The whole concept of Chinese medicine is balance, meaning having various components to counter each other. That's why traditional Chinese medicine recipes always use whole plants and animal parts. Extracting individual compounds means abandoning the balance, Yin vs. Yang concept. That is not Chinese medicine. It's biology.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
vesicles said:
I apologize if I hurt your feelings. That's not what I intended.

I'm not ignorant on Chinese medicine. My own maternal grandpa grew up in a family of doctors practicing Chinese medicine. In fact, his family had been practicing Chinese medicine and owning Chinese medicine pharmacies for centuries. In early 20th century, when my grandfather was born, his family owned about 200 Chinese medicine pharmacies in northern China. He was going to take over the control of all the branches in the northeastern China. That was until he decided to go to medical school and become a doctor at a western medicine hospital. You want to know why? Because none of the Chinese medicine theories made any sense to him when he was learning them. When he asked his elders, they just said "no one knows... just memorize them...". Eventually, he gave up and wanted to see what western medicine was like. And he found that he liked it.

I grew up playing acupuncture needles and human models of acupuncture points and flow of "Qi" painted on them. I know Chinese medicine. My grandpa also had a complete collection of Li Shizhen's classic book on Chinese medicine recipes. The late editions of the books that you can buy at bookstores nowadays have many of the original recipes taken out. If you have a chance to read the original edition, you will find how ridiculous the book is.
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That's pretty cool. I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

Just because we don't know something doesn't mean no one else did, even if in the past. It's also no surprise that knowledge may well have been lost as well as evolved given China's long periods of tumultuous history and dramatic development up through the relatively recent past, even now. These days there most certainly is scientific proof that some Chinese herbal medicines and chiropractice are effective, with more vetting to be done on more of it. I don't know about acupuncture. Several people I know in Hong Kong and Taiwan adhere solely to traditional Chinese medicine and it seems to have worked for them.
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
Think about some facts:

The most classic Chinese medicine literature is Emperor Huang's internal teaching, written about 3000 years ago. No one knows who wrote it. He most authoritative guess is someone in the Spring and Autumn time in the east Zhou dynasty.

Zhang Zhongjing's theory on flu was written in the Han dynasty, 2000 years ago.

One of the newest Chinese medicine literature would be Li Shizhen's Chinese medicine recipes and it was written in the Ming dynasty, 600 years ago.

Nothing has changed much since then. These are the textbooks still used by Chinese medicine schools in China. We all know science is about progress, about constantly changing, about constantly correcting oneself and about constantly improving oneself. The last attempt at proposing theories in Chinese medicine was by Zhang Zhongjing in the Han dynasty, again, 2000 years ago. No progress ever since then. It is not science.

I understand that I'm fighting an unwinnable battle. I will end my posting on this matter now. I am sorry if I offended anyone. It has never been my intention to do so. Just expressing my own 2-cent.
 
S

subotai1

Junior Member
Registered Member
vesicles said:
Extracting chemicals from natural substances for medicinal use is a common practice in all cultures, not unique to Chinese medicine.

In fact, the simple fact of attempting to "extracting compounds" is against the fundamental principles of Chinese medicine. The whole concept of Chinese medicine is balance, meaning having various components to counter each other. That's why traditional Chinese medicine recipes always use whole plants and animal parts. Extracting individual compounds means abandoning the balance, Yin vs. Yang concept. That is not Chinese medicine. It's biology.
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This helps me understand better where you're coming from, which is more from a whole system aspect.

Appreciate the civil discussion and posts Vesicles. Cheers.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
PanAsian said:
That last paragraph overreaches a lot. Acupuncture is one thing, "traditional Chinese medicine" encompasses a lot more such as herbal medicine and chiropractice, much of which is scientifically proven to work.

There are also plenty of Chinese "traditional martial arts" that are about as handy and as much of a sport as any other "traditional" martial arts out there. "Qigong" is only one aspect of Taichi which is only one popularized (and thereby diluted) school of martial arts among many that have been applied to real fighting and credited for their influence by users in MMA or other applied fighting.

I think a more accurate description of the situation is that there are a lot of innocent entertainers and devious scammers out there being misunderstood by and misleading towards a lot of ignorant people. Unfortunately there isn't enough, or accessible enough, of formal infrastructure or official knowledge base of these fields to allow a layperson to easily vet much.

It is also a simple issue of common sense, obviously it is impossible to hit something or someone without physical contact or for one person to throw off ten bigger ones on top of them. For one the level of ignorance of people who believe this stuff is the real problem. How many and how genuinely people actually believe in this stuff is also in question, such as the cheeky, disinterested, or desperate going along with the pretense for their own reasons.

On another note it appears you have a pattern of looking for things to attack tradition and culture with when the real problem obviously lies elsewhere.
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I'm a huge fan of Chinese martial arts, and I will readily choose TCM over western medicine under specific circumstances. I'm a great believer of the preservation of traditions and culture. The problem is, a lot of people think that preserving tradition means never questioning it. I vehemently disagree with that.

If I have a cold or an upset stomach, I will readily take a TCM herbal prescription over western medication like tylenol or pepto bismol. However, if the TCM "doctor" starts looking at my palm and telling me I have too much Yin or Yang, I'll just smile politely and find an excuse to leave. I will still get the prescription though.

Not every aspect of a tradition is worth preserving. Some beliefs need to be questioned and discarded. Chinese martial arts is a beautiful tradition that is about so much more than fighting, but it is hurt by practitioners who present it as something it is not.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
solarz said:
I'm a huge fan of Chinese martial arts, and I will readily choose TCM over western medicine under specific circumstances. I'm a great believer of the preservation of traditions and culture. The problem is, a lot of people think that preserving tradition means never questioning it. I vehemently disagree with that.

If I have a cold or an upset stomach, I will readily take a TCM herbal prescription over western medication like tylenol or pepto bismol. However, if the TCM "doctor" starts looking at my palm and telling me I have too much Yin or Yang, I'll just smile politely and find an excuse to leave. I will still get the prescription though.

Not every aspect of a tradition is worth preserving. Some beliefs need to be questioned and discarded. Chinese martial arts is a beautiful tradition that is about so much more than fighting, but it is hurt by practitioners who present it as something it is not.
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We're on the same page about all that then.

A different episode of the martial arts show I posted earlier, this time with English subtitles:
 
SamuraiBlue

SamuraiBlue

Captain
In pharmaceutical science, I believe they look at the acting agent within medicinal herbs and are
vesicles said:
In fact, the simple fact of attempting to "extracting compounds" is against the fundamental principles of Chinese medicine. The whole concept of Chinese medicine is balance, meaning having various components to counter each other. That's why traditional Chinese medicine recipes always use whole plants and animal parts. Extracting individual compounds means abandoning the balance, Yin vs. Yang concept. That is not Chinese medicine. It's biology.[
/QUOTE]

I believe this part is misleading, when traditional herbal medicine became common THERE was no knowledge in terms of identifying and isolating medicinal substance within herbs so they had to prescribe as a whole. If they had the knowledge like we do now in the modern world they probably would.
Now for traditional herbal medicine, in the pharmaceutical industry, I believe they look at the acting agent and write prescription based on them these days.
Some doctors favors prescribing medicinal herb since they act in a more subtle way and does not trigger an acute response.
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bluewater2012

bluewater2012

Junior Member
vesicles said:
I'm sorry but I take offense of the last part. NONE of the Chinese medicine theory has been scientifically tested. And none of it can be scientifically tested because none of it has been shown to actually exist. NONE!!!
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Uh, during 2003 HK SARS outbreak, traditional Chinese medicine had proven their effectiveness along with Western medicine and raised eyebrows worldwide. An article I could find using google search on the topic.

SARS Brings New Respect To Chinese Herbal Medicine
By
Trish Saywell and
Lara Wozniak Staff Reporters of The Wall Street Journal
Updated May 8, 2003 12:01 a.m. ET


Could cow-urine extract mixed with bull-horn shavings, mint leaves and melon peels help treat SARS?

Some in China's southern Guangdong province think so. Doctors at the epicenter of the outbreak of the deadly disease known as severe acute respiratory syndrome are reporting some success treating patients with a combination of traditional Chinese herbal medicine and Western drugs.

As conventional treatments prove elusive and...
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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Just to clarify my earlier post: I have no problems with TMA claiming to grant supernatural abilities. That is part of the appeal and mysticism of TMA in the first place.

The problem is with those TMA practitioners who claim to possess such abilities and use fraudulent demonstrations to attract students and money. These people are no better than the charlatan evangelists who claim to perform miracles.

IMO, the Chinese martial arts society and the government is not doing enough to stop these charlatans and educate the public.
 
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