Chinese Engine Development

latenlazy

Brigadier
I'm not sure where the notion that WS-10A entered service with FADEC originated. It could be one of those things that got repeated so many times that it was assumed to be true; like claims that ZTZ-96A used a 1000hp engine when it was actually using 800hp, or ZTZ-99 used 1500hp when it was 1200hp.

About J-10B No.1035, he didn't say they were giving it design certification, I expressed it poorly in my original statement. He just said the 1035 was going to validate or verify certain technologies or designs while using the WS-10B. When the WS-10B's damage was discovered, they switched it out and continued with the tests using an AL-31FN. The switching-out process seems to have taken less time than expected because the insider said there were official statements that praised the work of the team that switched the engines. I'm assuming their expediency prevented major delays to J-10B's testing schedule.
Wrt the J-10b, that makes sense.

On the WS-10 FADEC thing, I seem to recall FADEC in the WS-10 being advertised as early as the 2010 Zhuhai Airshow, and documents or award ceremony pictures validating its certification. It's been quite a while though, so perhaps I'm misremembering here.
 

timepass

Brigadier
>> Stealth Fighter Soon to be Powered by Indigenous Engines . . .

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

Referring to the J-20, "It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat fighter to have indigenous engines." said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We have also started to design a next-generation turbofan engine with thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current projects," he said.

Chen, who is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, spoke to China Daily on the sidelines of the political advisory body's annual session. This follows shortly after the confirmation that J-20 have entered service.

It is assumed by Chinese aviation analysts that China's stealth fighter J-20 is currently using Russian AL-31FM2 turbofan engines.

Chen said Chinese scientists and engineers are striving to catch up to the world's top players in terms of research and development into cutting-edge aviation engines, but the country still has a long way to go before it can develop and produce world-class engines.
"For instance, we are able to develop the two most important components in an advanced engine — the single crystal superalloy turbine blades and powder metallurgy superalloy turbine disks — but when in mass production, the product quality still waits to past satisfactory. However, it is a matter of time and persistence to make reliable engines." he claimed.

"The road to success is filled with setbacks and failures. Each of the world's engine powers has walked this road," Chen added.
Yin Zeyong, head of AECC's science and technology commission, previously said that a good engine is the result of not only good design but also time-consuming experiments and tests.

Despite China's tremendous achievements in science, technology and manufacturing industries over the past several decades, aircraft engine-making remains one of the few fields in which the country still lags behind top players like the United States and Russia. Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, only a handful of nations Security Council have technical ability to develop and produce them.

Meanwhile, Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.

Courtesy: People's Liberation Army Defence Update - PLADU

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kwaigonegin

Colonel
>> Stealth Fighter Soon to be Powered by Indigenous Engines . . .

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

Referring to the J-20, "It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat fighter to have indigenous engines." said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We have also started to design a next-generation turbofan engine with thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current projects," he said.

Chen, who is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, spoke to China Daily on the sidelines of the political advisory body's annual session. This follows shortly after the confirmation that J-20 have entered service.

It is assumed by Chinese aviation analysts that China's stealth fighter J-20 is currently using Russian AL-31FM2 turbofan engines.

Chen said Chinese scientists and engineers are striving to catch up to the world's top players in terms of research and development into cutting-edge aviation engines, but the country still has a long way to go before it can develop and produce world-class engines.
"For instance, we are able to develop the two most important components in an advanced engine — the single crystal superalloy turbine blades and powder metallurgy superalloy turbine disks — but when in mass production, the product quality still waits to past satisfactory. However, it is a matter of time and persistence to make reliable engines." he claimed.

"The road to success is filled with setbacks and failures. Each of the world's engine powers has walked this road," Chen added.
Yin Zeyong, head of AECC's science and technology commission, previously said that a good engine is the result of not only good design but also time-consuming experiments and tests.

Despite China's tremendous achievements in science, technology and manufacturing industries over the past several decades, aircraft engine-making remains one of the few fields in which the country still lags behind top players like the United States and Russia. Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, only a handful of nations Security Council have technical ability to develop and produce them.

Meanwhile, Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.

Courtesy: People's Liberation Army Defence Update - PLADU

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Do companies like AVIC employ concepts and methodology like 6 Sigma, LEAN manufacturing etc or something similar? That would cut down on defects and improve mass production techniques.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Do companies like AVIC employ concepts and methodology like 6 Sigma, LEAN manufacturing etc or something similar? That would cut down on defects and improve mass production techniques.
When I was taking economic development in Shanghai, my professor mentioned that Chinese firms usually pick up and master technical knowledge in no time, but it's organizational knowledge that they've had difficulties with. Go to any management school in China and you can probably find classes on Sigma 6, LEAN, Kaizen, Waterfall, Agile, etc. but it's one thing to learn these methods in school and another to effectively use and master them as part of your organizational culture. That kind of human capital takes time to build. My guess is, given where we see the state of Chinese products and manufacturing, China as a whole is probably well on its way to internalizing these sorts of efficient managerial processes as standard practice, but they probably still have a ways to go on the whole. My guess is that within AVIC alone you're going to find different firms at various states of adoption and proficiency.
 

Tyloe

Junior Member
So it's hoping 606th and 624th can resolve the issue in WS-15's real prototype/materials not found in the preliminary design, than going for 1.4x version of WS-10B, which could face similar problems with WS-10IPE from WS-10, and may even be more compromising for redesigns in the J-20?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Some of this stuff is inconsistent with other information we've deemed to be reliable for years now. The two that stood out most was the bit about FADEC in the WS-10 and the J-10B design certification. The latter might need some clarification, since we saw the J-10B undergoing testing years before we saw 1035, and when we did see 1035 it was being flown concurrently other J-10Bs installed with the AL-31.
i'm not convinced this guy is fully accurate with his information. We will see, some of his assertions seem to contradict things we have been hearing for ages.
 

jobjed

Captain
i'm not convinced this guy is fully accurate with his information. We will see, some of his assertions seem to contradict things we have been hearing for ages.

Regarding non-Liyang information, we shouldn't take his word as complete gospel; however his Liyang information seems pretty accurate as he claims he works there. Regardless, his hearsay is probably far better than ours. He's
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a few times for training and often come across various tidbits of information about other institutes. It seems Liyang is developing a closer relationship with 624th judging from his comments about them.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
So from all this stuff, the WS-10 and its variants are the only real success story? Looks like the WS-13E has also taken to the skies with the FC-31 and a FC-1 prototypes. So thats another positive.

Rest of the projects are rather worrisome.

Original WS-12, WS-13 now cancelled. Qinling-2 ('M53-P2' class upgraded WS-9) has gone missing for years and should be presumed dead. The advanced turbojet WP-14 'Kunlun' that should have replaced the WP-13 in the J-7 and J-8 didn't workout. The once proposed Kunlun-II/III turbofan series is DoA.

The biggest concern is the WS-15.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Regarding non-Liyang information, we shouldn't take his word as complete gospel; however his Liyang information seems pretty accurate as he claims he works there. Regardless, his hearsay is probably far better than ours. He's
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a few times for training and often come across various tidbits of information about other institutes. It seems Liyang is developing a closer relationship with 624th judging from his comments about them.
Office gossip can go awry too :p

But yes, better than anything we can do.
 

Inst

Captain
140kn WS-10IPE is somewhat disappointing; that's barely comparable to the latest Russian Su-35 engines. You would think the rumored 155kn was more accurate.
 
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