052C/052D Class Destroyers

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
I've already read about fifty or so tons (but from a link which added some derogatory comments)



well Mk 45 or OTO 5" are about 30t, so is the main difference due to the parts related to an autoloader? (which means 40t in case of an AK-130:

I guess the size and flexibility of the autoloader will have a big influence on the weight of the gun, so comparing the weight of the guns without detailed information will be difficult (some numbers might even include the weight of the ammunition).
The link I quoted above seemed to suggest that the 50tons included the autoloader.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
well I asked about specifics of how such a weight saving would be achieved



somehow my more important question got lost (or ignored :) and the question has been:


thanks anyway
Obviously in the structural reinforcement and barrel recoil mechanisms, of which I am not privy to, not being a naval gun expert. As for the weight, it is not hard to find it on the internet. As the previous poster said, 50 tons. Comparing one gun to another gun that is totally different in design to ask about weight savings is comparing apples to oranges.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
The PJ-38 is supposed to be 50tons (about half the weight of the AK-130), the description at
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(in japanese) argues that by reducing recoil the muzzle break is one of the changes allowing a lighter construction of the gun.

It seems PJ-38 is suppose to be the new design started in 2005 due to Chinese Navy judged that AK-130 was out-of-date
 
Obviously in the structural reinforcement and barrel recoil mechanisms, of which I am not privy to, not being a naval gun expert. As for the weight, it is not hard to find it on the internet. As the previous poster said, 50 tons. Comparing one gun to another gun that is totally different in design to ask about weight savings is comparing apples to oranges.
well I talked about four guns of the same caliber (please don't nitpick about 130 mm vs 5" difference) and of their weight and loading (there are well known trade-offs between 'top weight', 'internal space', 'rate of fire'), and while you may call it comparing apples to bananas, I think PJ-38 is the best of those four guns ASSUMING the post were true about
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
well I talked about four guns of the same caliber (please don't nitpick about 130 mm vs 5" difference) and of their weight and loading (there are well known trade-offs between 'top weight', 'internal space', 'rate of fire'), and while you may call it comparing apples to bananas, I think PJ-38 is the best of those four guns ASSUMING the post were true about
You're missing the point. When talking about "weight savings" in the context of a muzzle brake vs no muzzle brake, you DON'T compare this gun with a muzzle brake to another gun of entirely different design without a muzzle brake, even in similar calibers, because the various mechanisms involved in gun loading, elevation, and traverse may or may not be in the same locations (some of these may not be topside in some designs, for example). Even worse the level of armoring may be dramatically different from one gun design to another. An apples to apples comparison would be two guns of the same design, except one has a brake and the other doesn't, and then you compare weights.
 
You're missing the point.
I think you're missing the point, so now I'll reiterate and you may have the last word here if you want


When talking about "weight savings" in the context of ...
that's your talking point, but it's not what I mean; what I meant (in the series, inspired by a debater noticing Wednesday at 12:04 PM the muzzle break which I had been unaware of,
of casual posts
Thursday at 8:22 AM
Thursday at 8:11 PM
Friday at 8:26 PM
Friday at 9:11 PM
and the concluding one
Yesterday at 9:11 AM) was how does PJ-38 fare against three similar (similar according to me, not similar at all according to you as in Friday at 6:48 PM) guns in terms of parameters/capabilities, and such a comparison (which you would call flawed, I assume) is of my interest, so I thank you for arguing
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I think you're missing the point, so now I'll reiterate and you may have the last word here if you want



that's your talking point, but it's not what I mean; what I meant (in the series, inspired by a debater noticing Wednesday at 12:04 PM the muzzle break which I had been unaware of,
of casual posts
Thursday at 8:22 AM
Thursday at 8:11 PM
Friday at 8:26 PM
Friday at 9:11 PM
and the concluding one
Yesterday at 9:11 AM) was how does PJ-38 fare against three similar (similar according to me, not similar at all according to you as in Friday at 6:48 PM) guns in terms of parameters/capabilities, and such a comparison (which you would call flawed, I assume) is of my interest, so I thank you for arguing
You questioned me about the mechanism of weight savings afforded by the presence of a muzzle brake over lack of a muzzle brake and I told you why the H/PJ-38 with a muzzle brake is NOT comparable to other guns without muzzle brakes if you are talking about "weight savings" because these other guns' designs are different. Even if the gun loading/traverse/elevation designs were the exact same but just the weight of the armor was different, these guns instantly become non-comparable unless you know the exact weight of the extra armoring. I don't understand how this is difficult to understand. If you have some other talking point about something else that's your business. I have been talking about this exact point this entire time in response to your original question about muzzle brakes and weight savings.
 

delft

Brigadier
The point must be that you compare a gun with everything belonging to it with and without a muzzle brake. Not everything will be influenced by that but certainly the recoil installation and I would imagine that you would save much more weight there than the weight of the muzzle brake.
 

Quickie

Colonel
The point must be that you compare a gun with everything belonging to it with and without a muzzle brake. Not everything will be influenced by that but certainly the recoil installation and I would imagine that you would save much more weight there than the weight of the muzzle brake.

Or they can choose to maintain the same weight or thereabout, in addition to adding a muzzle brake, in the aim of further improving the firing rate. A heavier gun isn't necessarily worse off than a lighter gun if the former has a better firing rate or range.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Is that a muzzle break on this gun I see?

Why would they need one? The noise that thing would generate could deafen those nearby.

Would anyone be nearby? And I suppose you save weight in the mounting by using a muzzle brake.

OK but as far as I know neither OTO nor Mk45 5" nor AK-130 use muzzle brakes:

Muzzle break are mainly used for guns in manned turrets you don't need for unmaned by ex the new tank T-14, no crew no problem with the smoke...
 
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