Blackstone
Brigadier
Isn't the JF-17 "cheap point defense" for budget-minded countries?
Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)
- Thread starter tphuang
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
I don’t have any faith in the JF-17 (I will probably now be attacked by all the fanatical JF-17 supporters). Recently the JF-17 was offered to Sri Lanka and proclaimed “Deal of the Century!” Pakistan offer to Sri Lanka...'buy one JF-17 and get one used F-7 free.
However, the Sri Lanka Air Force did not proceed with the JF-17 offer, due to "technical shortcomings and designs flaws", they preferred the refurbished Mig-27s and Kfir aircraft over the JF-17
Link:
I would take carefully any information regarding problems or flaws about JF-17 coming from Indian media.
Indeed, all the links on that IBT article are referring to itself, without any solid external reference. It said (hinted) that report source comes from Reuters, but I can't find it. I welcome someone correct me. Nevertheless, it's NOT the first time I got such can-not-verify situation on India media, especially regarding JF-17.
Miragedriver
Brigadier
--- OFF TOPIC ---
I don’t want to get into a JF-17 discussion on this thread
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True that article was from India and was most likely bias. However, there are other things to consider.
The aircraft was tested, evaluated and ultimately rejected by Malaysia and Egypt. Some of the comments by seasoned Egyptian points were that the JF-17 lacks what it takes to win a fight in close combat. The pilots commented on how it doesn’t have wing twist nor does it have enough area to provide a low wing loading. Additionally, its performance during low speeds and high alphas would be very dangerous for the pilot.
Morocco evaluated the JF-17 as a potential replacement for the RMAF’s ageing Mirage F-1 (MF2000), F-5E/F Tiger II and Alpha Jets. But unlike many air forces still using legacy fighters, Morocco issued impressive upgrade programs for its old jets, bringing them on-par in many respects to modern day multi-role fighters. The F-5E/F Tiger II and the Mirage F-1s boast directly comparable (and in some respects superior) on-board electronics suites and air-to-air/air-to-surface munitions inventories as the JF-17 Block-I and Block-II. In the best case scenario, the RMAF could easily come to the conclusion that the JF-17 Block-II does not offer a substantive enough jump over its existing platforms to justify its inclusion.
Of the five nations that have evaluated the JF-17 (Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Nigeria, Egypt and Argentina) all rejected the aircraft due to “technical glitches”. If this is due to political pressure by Western nations, neighboring nations, cost to benefit ratio or actual performance issues is another topic of discussion.
Personally it would rather have an upgraded Mig-23MLD than a JF-17.
--- ON TOPIC ---
vesicles
Colonel
This is very interesting. If we look at all 6 nations that either operates the JF-17 or have tested the plane, PAF has the best fighter pilots. Additionally, among these nations, the PAF also has the most experience working with advanced 4th gen fighters (F-16's and Mirages). Yet, they seem to like the JF-17 a lot. So much so that they have decided to invest heavily to turn a big part of their fighter fleet to the JF-17's. Their commitment suggests that they truly like the plane.
The striking contrast between the PAF and other AF's is shocking to me. I can't imagine the PAF's decision to deploy the JF-17 is purely political. PAF doesn't have limitless budget to waste. With the clear and present danger from India, PAF would have the least incentive to play games with their national defense and commit to something less effective. And PAF also has access to other fighters as well, albeit with all the conditions and restrictions.
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
The answer may lie with Pakistan’s recent trauma & its psyche. Having sanctioned by the U.S, the star of their air force, the F-16s were severally hit by lack of spares and most of the time grounded. The other 2 sources to procure modern Aircraft- Russia, have been sealed off due to the legacy of Soviet era friendship, current market in India & India’s pressure- and the other source, the European Union, for their extremely high costs. The third source, the Chinese, at that time were still flying their reverse engineered Mig-21s.
In those circumstances, “Never again” was the motto of PAF and it instantly jumped into the project of further reversing the reverse engineered Mig-21, known as Super-7(a.k.a Super F-7) to obtain self-reliance. The result of that project is a substantially different aircraft, the JF-17. So the decision was appropriate at that time, in those situations. However now with China having developed the J-10, and going by the recent reports of offering ToT (Transfer of Technology) to Pakistan, one wonders why are the Pakistanis still ordering 250 planes. Is the trauma of F-16 sanctions so high that they don’t even trust the Chinese? This can't be the case because they still need the Chinese to procure the RD-93 engines for them, even after the Chinese transfer all their associated JF-17 tech to PAC. So why...? The answer lies with their ego/psyche rather than the trauma. Unlike J-10, Pakistan shares copyright to JF-17 and that, for some weird reason, gives them something to celebrate about. This is strange for the reason, war machines are for fighting wars and achieving tactical & strategic objectives, not for gloating about who holds the copyrights. When JF-17 comes face to face with MKI or SMT, there won’t be much to celebrate about it, or the few millions if at all it earns though exports. In the end, it’s all about defending ones homeland from the enemy, and not copyrights.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Good analysis, my dear friend.
People do tend to forget that the JF-17 Thunder is forming the backbone of Pakistan Air Force's combat aircraft fleet. This is an aircraft which will (in Block-lll production) have AESA radars, a more advanced EW Suite, uprated engines, IRST, IFR (already in Block-ll) and perhaps even the likely possibility of CFTs. All of these address every requisite set most air forces around the world. Range, power, avionics all are covered. So why would Pakistan Air Force opt for the J-10?
The answer is simple, economic feasibility of procuring an aircraft that would have near identical capabilities. Even if Pakistan Air Force procures the J-10 under China's military financing. It would mean additional infrastructure to support the maintenance of this aircraft. From engine overhauls, to aircraft maintenance, logistics, training and proficiency of both maintenance personnel as well as fighter pilots.
In an ideal world, why wouldn't Pakistan Air Force want an aircraft like the J-10C!! But we don't live in an "ideal world" now, do we?! Realistic is what Pakistan's approach is. Within the parameters of it's financial and infrastructure sustainability. J-10 is a magnificent aircraft, a marvel of Chinese aeronautical engineering. No doubt in the prowess of this aircraft and what it brings to the battle in the air. But Pakistan Air Force is not one with many luxuries.
Its a no brainer, have 250 Thunders, fulfilling two thirds of Pakistan Air Force's combat fleet. Better trained and proficient personnel to do quick turn around on getting the aircraft airborne. Single type aircraft in substantial numbers across the fleet. F-16s are the high-end, air-superiority role and JF-17s are the medium-end, multi-mission role. The former, an aircraft that Pakistan's fighter pilots have mastery over and the latter is one aircraft type for many roles. Makes for an efficient, robust and clutter free air force which is quick and hard hitting.
On the other hand, we see india with its combat aircraft fleet, and it's various types of fighters. From Su-30 Flankers, MiG-29 Fulcrums, Jaguars, MiG-27 Floggers, Mirage 2000s, MiG-21 Fishers. It's like a frat party spiralling out of control!!! That's 6 types of fighter-jets all in one air force. I mean to say, come on na man ... seriously!!!? Even the most powerful of all air forces in the world (USAF), is downsizing yo just two types of fighters ... F-22s and F-35s. Whereas our very colorful neighbor has 6 types of fighters. Ya can't make this stuff up. Imagine the logistical nightmare that must keep the indian air force's maintenance personnel up at all hours of the night.
So while others may have "big dreams" to realize, Pakistan on the other hand, would rather be realistic than have such lofty dreams!!
Hope that answers your question, dear friend.
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