China's SCS Strategy Thread

weig2000

Captain
Strictly speaking, PRC vs Taiwan or US vs PRC on Taiwan does not belong to this thread. If people are interested in those topics, they may create a new thread and move the last few pages there.

Meanwhile, let's keep this thread for any developments related to China's SCS strategy.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I don't think so- several reasons:

a) China still has no nuclear parity with the US ( neither in numbersof warheads or in delivery systems ICBM-s and SSBNs )

b) China still has no technological parity with the US ( no 5th gen. fighters in service, crappy SSNs, not enough transport aircrafts and helicopters, aircraft engines not as good as Russian/Western )

c) China is heavily reliant on maritime energy importation ( tankers trough Strait of Malacca ) and has not diversified enough it's supply of oil/gas from Russia and Central Asian countries ( and Iran ) to be able to withstand US blocade

d) transition of Chinese economy from export-based ( with low cost labour ) to domestic consumption-based ( with not so low cost of labour ) is just starting and blockade can destroy the economy of China

When people think their lives are more valuable especially when compared to others, they're more afraid to lose it. If you think your life is worth a thousand of the enemy's and then when you die it's like killing a thousand of your people. Did Iraq or Afghanistan need a comparable military to give the US a headache? China can cause a lot more damage beyond military and China's border. If beating China by the numbers were that simple why hasn't the US and allies taken on China militarily? China's a menace and the greatest threat to the free world according to many. So why haven't they done it?

The US claims if China controls the South China Sea it can choke the world economy. China doesn't need to control the South China Sea to do that. It's the manufacturing hub for the world. It just has to stop making things for them and the same result is accomplished. What havoc can China plague the Far East while the US tries to contain China? What does China have to lose when its neighbors are helping the US to try to destroy the Chinese? Most of the countries in the Far East know this and are not myopic to follow a path to their own destruction following the whims of the US hence why they're worried Trump may start a war with China. If they were game with the US's goals, they wouldn't be worried about war. They wouldn't be worried about their economic relations with China. Like I said China should let the US escalate and China should match every step of the way, and they will be the ones to back down because eventually everyone will recognize the price for what the US starts and wants is too grave.

There are plenty of ways China wins without the military even being used because not only their lives can be lost, they have more material items that they value to lose. That's what it means when they brag about being richer than China. They have more to lose.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Again, just to remind everyone, while China and the US seem to be both arguing over the SCS, they are actually pursuing two very different goals.

China is engaged in the consolidation and fortification of its island holdings in the SCS, to turn them into bases from which the Chinese navy can patrol the area.

The US, on the other hand, does not actually care about the SCS. It is using it as a wedge issue to try to turn the other claimants against China and thus achieve containment.

Which is why we are seeing the US making these FONOPs while the Chinese continue to build up their islands. The two side are basically talking past each other.
 

abc123

Junior Member
Registered Member
now I logged on and ... what the heck is this?!

REPORTED flame-bait plus talking "China-US nuclear war" somewhere above this post

As I allready said, I was just responding on solarz's mentioning of nuclear war, MAD etc.

And I didn't mention any red lines for China, or is it opportune for China to have conflict now or later nor can US defeat China or not- first. I was just responding on posts of others.

But I'm glad you reported it.

Don't see any flame baiting in stating my opinion and backing it up with arguments.
 

supercat

Major
According to the New York Times, Bob Dole and the law firm he worked for acted as the paid foreign agent and lobbyist for the government of Taiwan, and set up the phone call between Tsai and Trump.

WASHINGTON — Former Senator
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, acting as a foreign agent for the government of Taiwan, worked behind the scenes over the past six months to establish high-level contact between Taiwanese officials and President-elect
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’s staff, an outreach effort that culminated last week in an unorthodox telephone call between Mr. Trump and Taiwan’s president.

Mr. Dole, a lobbyist with the Washington law firm Alston & Bird, coordinated with Mr. Trump’s campaign and the transition team to set up a series of meetings between Mr. Trump’s advisers and officials in Taiwan, according to disclosure documents filed last week with the Justice Department. Mr. Dole also assisted in successful efforts by Taiwan to include language favorable to it in the Republican Party platform, according to the documents.

Mr. Dole’s firm received $140,000 from May to October for the work, the forms said.

The disclosures suggest that President-elect Trump’s decision to take a call from the president of Taiwan, Tsai Ing-wen, was less a ham-handed diplomatic gaffe and more the result of a well-orchestrated plan by Taiwan to use the election of a new president to deepen its relationship with the United States — with an assist from a seasoned lobbyist well versed in the machinery of Washington.
...

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Don't miss the top rated comments after the article. They make some very interesting points succinctly.

Trump claimed he would get rid of the lobbyists and drain the swamp. But he was dragged down the swamp by Taiwan's lobbyists before he is even inaugurated.
 

supercat

Major
Some salient points from The Washington Post:

Trump flunks his first foreign policy test

By
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Opinion writer December 6 at 7:30 PM


Whatever else future historians say about Donald Trump’s early foreign policy moves, they’re likely to note the erratic and, in many ways, self-defeating nature of the president-elect’s initial dealings with China, the country many analysts view as the United States’ most important long-term rival.

Devising a wise strategy for challenging China’s ascendancy in Asia is arguably the top foreign policy task for a new president. But if Trump planned to take a tougher stance, this was a haphazard way to do it. The president-elect instead stumbled into a pre-inaugural foreign flap, insulting Beijing and causing it to lose face, without having a clear, well-articulated plan for what he seeks to accomplish.

Worse, Trump’s fulminations about China come just as his plan to withdraw from the
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is undermining the United States’ standing with allies in Asia. Trump, in effect, is ceding economic ground to China at the very moment he claims to be taking a harder line. Is this a cool, calculating strategy from the dealmaker? It looks to me more like a hot mess.

[
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]


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needn’t have created this crisis. The Chinese at first seemed willing to give the inexperienced Trump a pass — blaming the precedent-altering call on
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. Beijing presumably recognized that this wasn’t the time to pick a fight, and Trump should have adopted the same stance.

But Trump, evidently feeling cornered, doubled down.
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about China’s currency manipulation (a largely bogus charge he repeated through the campaign) and its aggressive actions in the South China Sea (a real problem requiring strong, steady U.S. leadership). An embarrassed China is sure to take countermeasures, which will further confound U.S. policy.



The episode reinforced two points about Trump: He loves to be flattered by calls from foreign leaders (including “presidents” of countries the United States doesn’t recognize). And he’s thin-skinned and reacts to criticism with the pique of an American Kim Jong Un.


Twitter amplifies Trump’s tendency for personal overreaction. In an era of nuclear weapons, this sort of undamped presidential oscillation could be seriously dangerous to global health.


To understand this China flap, try imagining it through the eyes of Henry Kissinger, the former secretary of state who created the template for modern U.S.-China relations. On Friday, he was in Beijing saying soothing things about Trump; a few hours later, the president-elect threw a stink bomb into the edifice Kissinger started building 45 years ago.


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on Friday as a potential intermediary with Trump. “We are now in a key moment,” Xi said. “Dr. Kissinger, I am all ears to what you have to say about the current world situation and the future growth of China-U.S. relations.”



Kissinger suggested that Trump, despite his inexperience, would be pragmatic. After his meeting with Xi,
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, “This president-elect, it’s the most unique that I’ve experienced in one respect: He has absolutely no baggage.” He argued that despite Trump’s inflammatory campaign positions, analysts “should not insist in nailing him to positions that he had taken in the campaign on which he doesn’t insist.”



Then — kaboom! — the Taiwan call, which raised questions about the durability of
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that set the basic framework of the “One China” policy.


This jousting over Taiwan wouldn’t be so worrisome if other aspects of the U.S.-Asia policy were intact. But Trump’s pledge to tear up the TPP in his first days in office has sent the other 11 nations that signed the pact scrambling for cover — with some talking of making new deals with
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.


Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, the United States’ most important Asian ally, said last month that TPP members would consider joining a rival, Chinese-led trade agreement known as the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, or RCEP. “There’s no doubt that there would be a pivot to the RCEP if the TPP doesn’t go forward,”
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. Peru and Australia, two other TPP signatories, also indicated they might join the RCEP.



“If you want to stand up to China, the last thing you should do is walk away from TPP,” said Michael Froman in an interview. He’s the U.S. trade representative Trump blasted during the campaign as an incompetent negotiator.


It must be said that Trump’s slapdash, self-destructive Asian maneuvers over the past week make Froman look like a negotiating genius by comparison. Trump just faced his first foreign policy test with the Taiwan flap and muffed it. Let’s hope he learns something.

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
There are obviously people around Trump taking advantage of Trump's lack of governmental experience. If this call was Trump's plan all the time, didn't he just give it away carelessly to China like he's been always arguing why he doesn't tell anyone what he plans to do like with ISIS? I read an article calling it a genius move. Yeah if just irking the Chinese was the goal, mission accomplished. But now China knows what direction Trump will go before he even takes office. And if it was due to ignorance of US policy, that's makes it worse. Trump is going to have trouble getting cooperation on other issues because China believes the US will go against the One-China policy now. Wouldn't it be better getting China on board on other issues and then spring the surprise?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
no more nuclear war discussion please. I'm going to have to start handing out warnings and suspensions if people keep talking about this.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
@tphuang- I appreciate your concerns and they're well placed. On the other hand, the ultimate test of national interests and foreign policies of countries are their ability and willingness to fight for them, and by "fight" I mean go to war. When it comes to war between great powers, we're talking about diplomatic, political, economic, and good old fashioned brute force on land, at sea, under water, in the air, in space, in cyber space, and in people's minds.

To have "professional quality" discussions of geopolitical issues is to touch on all aspects of national interests and foreign policies; war drumming degrades quality discussions and debates, but some degree of war talk is necessary to encompass the full range of international relations and geopolitical events. What's the limit? Hopefully the forum mods will set them on a case by case basis.
 

supercat

Major
I will not be surprised that a few countries that have diplomatic relations with Taiwan currently will defect to China in the next couple of months as China retaliates for this phone call.

On the other hand, I think it will be prudent for China's policy makers to discard any illusion of a peaceful reunification with Taiwan as soon as possible, double or triple China's military budget, and prepare for a full scale invasion within a decade.
 
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