SSK Diesel/Electric Sub Thread (AIP too)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
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28SS-01.jpg

Article by Submarine Matters

New Japanese Defence Minister Inada. Nakatani demoted?

In early August 2016 Japan’s conservative Prime Minister Abe appointed a like-minded conservative as Defense Minister. She is Tomomi Inada.

It is too early to tell what impact she will have. She is considered highly nationalist by China and some other regional neighbors. Many political observers in Japan believe that Abe is grooming Inada to be his successor

So, has Nakatani been demoted? If so, was it due to not selling the sub to Australia?

Sub size and sonars

Gleaned from comments by ex-Vice Admiral, Masa Kobayashi (SHIPS OF THE WORLD, from 2016, No.9) along the lines that generally the larger the submarine the more powerful and effective its sonars. This places larger, reactor powered, submarines at the top of the sonar effectiveness tree (particularly for more commonly used passive sonars). The large SSKs, like the Soryu and future Shortfin, would rate highly. Small SSKs (eg. TKMS Ula class and Type 210mod) not so much.

SORYU TABLE (with earlier Oyashios) as of August 26, 2016
Soryu-Table.jpg
Higher cost for Higher Performance of Mark 2s (Mk 2s) 27SS and 28SS

The budgeting for the Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) is single year and multi-year depending on the documents. The Board of Audit (BoA) and Ministry of Finance (MoF) need to be convinced that ongoing or higher funding is needed for MoD's new submarine requests. The conceptual complexity of these requests is something MoD needs to constantly explain to MoF and to other relevant branches of Government.

The non-AIP Soryu Mark 2 (27SS onwards) and follow-on class will paradoxically have some structural similarities to the non-AIP Oyashios that preceded the AIP Soryu Mark 1.

The Oyashios themselves are undergoing life extension, including combat system upgrades, to bring Japan's operational submarine numbers up from the existing average of 16 up to 22 (to meet increasing strategic threats to Japan).

In the FY 2018 budgetary request, the Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) will request 76 billion Yen (0.99 billion AUD) for the first of the New Submarine Class.

In the FY 2018 budgetary request, the Japanese Ministry of Defence (MoD) will request 76 billion Yen (0.99 billion AUD) for the first of the New Submarine Class 29SS to be commissioned by the end of Fiscal year 2021. The new subs will be equipped with an improved sonar system and will be more silent/stealthy. The Japanese are also perfecting a new snorkel system that is effective in the higher sea states (eg, storms) that are common in the Pacific.

Soryu-Progression-Table.jpg
The new snorkel generation system which MoD will use for Soryu Mark 2s (27SS and <b>28SS) is to be consist of a snorkel system and diesel generator. This terminology is rather difficult to understand, because the snorkel system does not generate power. But, this odd terminology has important meaning in the MoD budget and tender system.

A competitive tender is applied for purchasing the diesel generator, because it is general equipment. In contrast, an optional contract can be applied for purchasing the snorkel generation system, according to related law [known as Cabinet Order on Budgets, the Settlement of Accounts, and Accounting (Chapter VII), Article 102-4. The suppler of snorkel generation system can select diesel generator as part, and consequently MoD can effectively exclude undesired diesel generator.

The MoD may explain the increased budgets for 27SS and 28SS to the Board of Audit (BoA), but BoA will not accept the increased budget [merely] due to the price of LIBs. If 27SS and 28SS are not equipped with the new snorkel generation system, the elastc sound reducing deck and new sonar system, the price of 29SS which utilizes these systems and new G-RX6 torpedoes will be nearly 80 billion yen..

Higher LIBs performance at higher cost

The new propulsion systems for LIBs-Soryus (<b>27SS</b> and <b>28SS</b>) are more expensive (1.1 billion yen) than those for LABs-Soryus (0.9 billion yen). TMEIC (Toshiba Mitsubishi-Electric Industrial Systems Corporation) won the competitive tender of the propulsion systems against the conventional supplier, Fuji Electric Co., LTD.

It is expected the new propulsion systems are much more powerful than those for LABs-Soryus. LIB Soryus 27SS and 28SS will have a higher maximum speed than previous Soryus (reliant on LABs). HAving said that, the top speed may not be dramatically because it would require a dramatically more powerful engine. You already note the logarithmic relationship of power to speed; this applies even more to the power of the engine than it does to the power storage capacity. High underwater speed in a D/E is only good for running away in a bad situation.

Nukes can use it to actually change theaters. D/E designs generally hit a wall of cost-vs-benefit at ~20 knots and I wouldn't expect this to change despite the switch to LIB vice LAB/AIP: fundamentally even a D/E with all its diesels going is generating an order of magnitude less energy than an SSN and they can afford to waste energy or likely even weight on a 25-30 knot capability.

Current Soryu Class Submarine

29ss-01.jpg

G-RX6 - Future Heavy Weight Torpedo

It is not clear whether the FY 2018 budget for the first of the New (post Soryu) Submarine Class includes the new torpedo, G-RX6, cost or not. If the cost of the G-RX6s is not taken into account for this budget request, this will present a budgetary problem. The 29SS, with G-RX6s, will be too expensive (eg. 80 billion Yen).

Judging from the budget status for development of the G-RX6, the development has nearly finished and <b>29SS</b> can be equipped with G-RX6s. It is expected the 29SS will show much superior performance to current AIP Soryu Mark 1s, but 29SS is 50% more expensive.

GRX6-01.jpg

Japan is developing the Heavy weight [G-RX6] torpedo (HWT) for submarine, in order to oppose highly efficient surface warships and submarines. The HWT hass an advanced Torpedo counter counter measures (TCCM) function, and is excellent in detection, tailing, and the performance in deep and shallow ocean.

The TCCM capability reduces or eliminates the effect of enemy ship's or submarine's decoys and acoustic jamming. It is strongly assumed Japanese HWTs share technology with the US Mark 48 in TCCM and deeper/shallower performance.
 
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SouthernSky

Junior Member
India closes shop on further Scorpene class purchases after leak fiasco. You can hardly blame them.

In addition to the six submarines already under contract, the Indian Navy will not procure additional Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) diesel-electric attack submarines from French ship maker Direction des Constructions Navales Services (DCNS), following the leak of documents detailing the top-secret combat capabilities of India’s new submarine fleet,
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to media reports.

“We had an agreement for six, and six it will remain,” an Indian defense official
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Reuters. DCNS, under a $4.16 billion contract (known as Project 75-I) awarded in 2005, agreed to build six Scorpene-class (Kalvari-class) diesel electric submarines for the Indian Navy in Mumbai in cooperation with state-run Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL). The Project 75-I deal included the option of building six more Scorpene-class subs at MDL.

Some media outlets falsely reported that the initial contract also included an order for three more submarines in addition to the six currently being assembled in Mumbai. However, “India has ordered only six Scorpene submarines and orders have not been placed for three more as reported by some media. Therefore question of cancellation does not arise,” an Indian naval officer told Reuters.

“No [new] order will be signed, nothing is going to happen now,” the officer added.

DCNS allegedly put forward a foreign direct investment proposal for setting up a wholly-owned Indian subsidiary that would engage in research and development “in relation to air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for submarines,” The Wire
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. The new AIP technology would be installed on the three to six additional Scorpene-class submarines if a new order were to be placed. Nevertheless, next to the DCNS data leak fallout, the project is hampered by other issues, including the fact that the French ship maker already transferred AIP technology for the six Scorpene-class subs under contract to India’s Defense Research Development Organization, making the new Indian subsidiary’s work redundant.

With DCNS apparently out of the competition for the
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, India will have to look among the French ship maker’s competitors–including Navantia (Spain), Kockums (Sweden), Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard (Russia), Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (Japan)— to choose a foreign defense contractor to build an additional six diesel-electric attack submarines in Mumbai.

Initially, DCNS
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competitors for the leak, which is still under investigation by Indian and French authorities. “The 22,400 pages leak includes highly classified documents marked ‘Restricted Scorpene India’ outlining the Scorpene-class sub’s diving depths, range, and endurance, magnetic, electromagnetic and infrared data, and details of the submarine’s combat system, including the torpedo launch system,” I
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elsewhere. The data leak also included
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on the Exocet SM39 anti-ship missile slated to be deployed on the new subs.

Source

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SouthernSky

Junior Member
Operating submarines comes with the responsibility of being able to rescue those that man the silent service.

Exercise Black Carillon 2016. Royal Australian Navy.

The submarine rescue vessel LR5 is recovered on to the work deck of MV Stoker from the basin at Fleet Base - West after a systems test run during Ex Black Carillon 2016.

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The LR5 Rescue Submarine is brought back on board MV Stoker after completing a docking evolution with HMAS Dechaineux during Ex Black Carillon 2016.

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One of the divers hooks up the winch cable to the LR5 Rescue Submarine so it can be brought back on board MV Stoker after completing a docking evolution with HMAS Dechaineux during Ex Black Carillon 2016.


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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The submarine is back in force in global fleets

Indétectable in the deep sea, it awaits its prey to spy on them or hit them with torpedoes or missiles: somewhat forgotten after the end of the Cold War, the attack submarine comeback in global fleets.
Asia, Russia or the United States armed forces based on the accelerator to develop a weapon whose key asset is discretion.

"States are realizing" that surface ships and aircraft are "increasingly" vulnerable to missiles and sophisticated radar opponents, said Bryan Clark, expert in American research center on weapons programs the CSBA (Center for strategic and budgetary assessment).
"So they try to develop submarine capability" to retain the ability to approach their opponents and attack them, he says.

The trend is particularly pronounced in Asia, spurred by the military revival of China.
Beijing has set up maritime defense capabilities and highly sophisticated anti-air, to prohibit any approach its coast to aircraft carriers or enemy ships.

And China has also been working hard to develop a fleet of attack submarines, now with fifty diesel vehicles and five nuclear submarines of attack.
Australia has this year signed a contract to purchase 12 submarines, nuclear-free version of the French model Barracuda.

Vietnam has bought six submarines from Russia. Japan, India, Indonesia and Malaysia are also developing their capabilities in this area.

For their part, Americans are concerned about their shortcomings.
Last March, Admiral Harry Harris, who commands the Pacific, told the Congress that only 60% of applications for attack submarines could be met, the Navy not having enough available.
same goes for General Philip Breedlove, who commanded the Europe, confronted him the great return of Russian submarines, pampered by President Vladimir Putin.
- Hitting the ground targets -
In peacetime, attack submarines are used primarily to collect intelligence on the enemy fleets, but also on what happens on the ground. The Americans and use them to monitor North Korea, China or Russia.

In wartime, the submarines can attack enemy fleets. And those equipped with cruise missiles can approach the coast to strike ground targets.
Textbook case, reminds the expert Jerry Hendrix, the think tank Center for New American Security: the offensive of the international coalition against Gaddafi in 2011, began by firing 90 Tomahawk missiles by the US submarine USS Florida to destroy the Libyan air defenses.
Shot by Russia in December Kalibr cruise missiles on Syria, since a submarine conventionally powered evolving in the Mediterranean, is another recent example.

Aware of the stakes, the US Navy plans to reverse the decline of its fleet of nuclear submarines. From a hundred still in the 1980s, it now has 53 buildings and will do no more than forty in 2029 if nothing is done.
The US Navy therefore plans to continue to build two nuclear submarines of attack per year, whereas it had planned to move to only as of 2021.

And innovates to keep its technological supremacy over its adversaries.
- Small aircraft carrier -
From 2019, it will equip its existing nuclear submarines, Virginia type, a new module enabling them to launch drone submarines, called in the future to play a crucial role in submarine warfare.
"The submarines will become more like small aircraft carrier, equipped with a variety of missiles and submarine drones," said Bryan Clark.

These drones could conduct reconnaissance and attack missions, approaching closer to the enemy coast and overwhelming the defenses of the opponent.
The US Navy has successfully last year of launch drone testing and recovery by a submarine.
"Most of the drones that the Navy is experimenting are the size of a torpedo, and have a range of a maximum day," adds Clark.

But the Navy is working on future autonomous underwater vehicles longer and wider, with a life of one month.

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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Why Japan’s Soryu-Class Submarines Are So Good

The Second World War taught Japan valuable lessons. The first—don’t start wars—is an obvious conclusion that has been taken to heart. Other lessons were the result of the wartime Allied air and naval blockade of the country, which brought it to the brink of starvation. For Japan, poor in resources and arable land, to survive the next war, the air and sea lanes must stay open, and for that to happen, Japan must have top-flight air and naval forces.

Japan’s postwar submarine fleet is one of the best in the world. With an authorized total of twenty-two submarines, the Japan Maritime Self Defense Force’s submarine fleet is also one of the largest. Japan builds its own submarines, with the work split between Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, both based in the port city of Kobe.

Japan takes an iterative approach to submarine construction, with a new submarine class introduced roughly every twenty years that builds upon previous ones. The current class, Soryu, builds upon the older Oyashio class, and the two classes form the entirety of the fleet. Each Soryu features a high degree of automation, reducing crew size to nine officers and fifty-six enlisted men—down ten personnel from the Harushio-class of the mid-1990s.

At 4,200 tons submerged, the nine Soryu-class submarines are the largest submarines built by postwar Japan. Each is 275 feet long and nearly twenty-eight feet wide. They have a range of 6,100 nautical miles and can reportedly dive to a depth of 2,132 feet, or two-fifths of a mile. The Soryu class features an X-shaped tail, reportedly for
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in approaching the seabed. This maximizes the sub’s maneuvering room in shallow and littoral waters, particularly the straits in and around Japan that mark key invasion routes.

Each submarine has an optronic mast and ZPS-6F surface/low-level air search radar for detection of enemy ASW and maritime patrol craft. As submarines, however, the main sensor is sonar, represented by the Hughes/Oki ZQQ-7 sonar suite incorporating one bow-mounted sonar array and four flank sonar arrays. The subs also have a towed sonar array for rear acoustic detection.

The Soryu class has six 533-millimeter torpedo tubes mounted in the bow. Armament consists of
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with a range of twenty-seven nautical miles and a maximum operating depth of 2,952 feet. The standard diameter torpedo tubes, along with strong American ties, mean the Soryu is also armed with
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missiles. According to Combat Ships of the World, there are unconfirmed reports that the submarines carry a warshot of thirty weapons instead of the twenty of previous classes. They can also lay mines.

The Soryus have extensive active defense systems, in the form of the ZLR-3-6 electronic countermeasures suite and two three-inch underwater countermeasures launchers for launching acoustic devices. On the passive side, the entire submarine is covered in
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to reduce both the signature of enemy active sonar signals and sounds from the inside the ship.

Propulsion is what the class is most famous for. Each can make thirteen knots surfaced and twenty knots submerged, powered by twelve Kawasaki 12V 25S diesel engines and one tandem Toshiba electric motor. For silent running, each submarine is equipped with four Stirling V4-275R Mk
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licensed from Sweden that can power the submarine underwater for up to two weeks. There are also rumors that the last ships built will trade their AIP units for lithium-ion batteries.

The Soryu class isn’t perfect, though: one major criticism of the boats during the
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was their relatively short operating range. At 6,100 nautical miles, the Soryu’s range wasn’t an issue for their original mission: protecting the home waters of Japan.

Australian Soryus, however, would have had to travel 3,788 miles from their base at
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just to reach the vicinity of Taiwan, a voyage that would necessitate at least one refueling stop, and probably two. For the Australian bid, the Soryus were to be lengthened six to eight meters for improved crew habitability and increased range, but the need to modify the submarine for Australian requirements likely worked against Japan.

The combination of long-endurance stealth, sensors, and modern torpedoes and missiles makes the Soryu class an effective hunter-killer. It is, however, a specialized killer, as Australia came to realize, and would have been a fish out of water in Australian service.

As potent as the class is, expect a replacement class that builds upon this hunter-killer within the next decade. Japan is exploring unmanned underwater vehicles, and toward that end, underwater communications and underwater wireless power-transmission methods. What will Son of Soryu look like? Stay tuned.

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