Chinese Engine Development

b787

Captain
Why is there so much useless junk in your response, such as the TWR of German jets, Berkut engine, MiG-31, AL-31 afterburner on J-20?? We are talking about China, India, Japan. Now I see why people get pissed off when they debate with you. They feel like they're wading through a pile of garbage. It's a skill to keep your responses concise.

I realize that each generation of turbofan usually has higher TWR, and they have higher thrust too. But you cannot classify engines solely on TWR, do you understand that? Or what is that toy I showed you? TWR 12, thrust 2.15kg so 5th gen engine?? There are model toy engines with TWR over 20. What are they? 7th gen? It is only in your "fantasy land" that 2 engines with similar TWR but one of >130kN operational, and one <50kN prototype can be considered similar level.

What 2 programs did Kaveri get split into? Fail 1 and Fail 2? LOL What's the progress? Clearly, at this stage, it's nowhere near in shape to be compared to any country with a working turbofan.

You have insane excuses for India and Japan. Kaveri's only problem was that it was a little too big! Japan only has a midget engine because they're super nice and didn't wanna anger P&W! But when it comes to China, if engine is not on hordes of J-10, then it's unreliable! Engine on >200 operational Flankers? Doesn't count! Needs to be on J-10! Every good engine must be on J-10 or it's rubbish! LOL Chinese manufacturing can't make enough? Don't believe that! If they don't make 500 a year and put them all on J-10, then that's proof they don't work! LOL You're a joke. Even brat lost his patience with you and that's very difficult to do.
your example was even foolish to put it mildly, if we are talking about jet engines, TJ-200 is an engine you will not buy easily, there are micro turbines, but they are not for foam toys, you are simply repeating your mantra because you can not see a generation of jet engines is related to TWR and SFC, all the engines i mentioned are 4th generation because they have a TWR of around 8:1, regardless they have a thrust of 24000 kg as NK-25 or 5000 kg as Kaveri or XF-5, your mantra WS-10 is more advanced is just pure forumlore, if your criteria was right then S-37 with D-30 or even MiG-31 are 5th generation fighters, not to speak of Yak-141, but since you know WS-10 does not have technologies beyond XF-5 or Kaveri you go to great lengths it is more advanced because it generates near 13000 kg, if i use that criteria then NK-25 is sixth generation and Tu-22M flies with the most advanced engines, but you whole criteria of classification is bogus at best
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
your example was even foolish to put it mildly, if we are talking about jet engines, TJ-200 is an engine you will not buy easily, there are micro turbines, but they are not for foam toys, you are simply repeating your mantra because you can not see a generation of jet engines is related to TWR and SFC, all the engines i mentioned are 4th generation because they have a TWR of around 8:1, regardless they have a thrust of 24000 kg as NK-25 or 5000 kg as Kaveri or XF-5, your mantra WS-10 is more advanced is just pure forumlore, if your criteria was right then S-37 with D-30 or even MiG-31 are 5th generation fighters, not to speak of Yak-141, but since you know WS-10 does not have technologies beyond XF-5 or Kaveri you go to great lengths it is more advanced because it generates near 13000 kg, if i use that criteria then NK-25 is sixth generation and Tu-22M flies with the most advanced engines, but you whole criteria of classification is bogus at best
You clearly have an English comprehension problem and cannot read (or write). I said that TWR is not the only criteria in engine generation designation, but it is one of them. Thrust is another, not the only. Both and more criterion are considered to determine the modernity of an engine design, but certainly, if all the info you have is same TWR, 1:3 thrust difference, the small engine cannot be assumed to be on par with the larger one. But to be honest, I think the whole engine generation thing is BS and there are no actual definitions. What is the definition of 4th gen engine? 5th gen? I can fly a large aircraft with an engine of 150kN with TWR of 4 but it will not fly with 50kN engine TWR 15. I prefer the former over the latter.

I know that WS-10 doesn't have tech beyond XF-5 or Kaveri??? How the devil do you assume I know that? First of all, Kaveri doesn't fly, so that's off the table, no need to discuss it until it becomes an actual usable engine. If WS-10 didn't have tech beyond XF-5, then why does it have more than 160% extra thrust? Magic? Oh, right, you think that you can take the same tech of a small engine, make it bigger, and the thrust will go up linearly! Genius LOL. The physics and material science behind why that won't work is too complicated for a person who thinks that you increase engine reliability by increasing TWR. But the other readers here know.

Let's just say this: if China wanted to scale up WS-10 into an engine usable for a stealth bomber, but it wanted to keep the TWR constant, except push the thrust to 300kN, it would be about as difficult as designing a new engine. A leap in material science is unquestionably needed and that engine would be far more sophisticated than the original WS-10. But by your definition, they'd be the same cus they have the same TWR, just like how the RC ebay toy for $34 is about the same, a lil better than F135 because it has slightly higher TWR.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Honestly, B787, it's obvious what you're doing. You wrong and it's embarrassing so you can't stop digging hoping to get out. Everyone else here sees you're wrong too.

So you 1. aim to respond, not to understand. Which is why you just won't grasp simple concepts like how TWR is not the only determining factor in engine advancement or how failed prototypes can't be compared with operational engines.

Then, 2. you want to muddle the conversation with garbage, bringing up Russian engines to compare with American engines, early German engines, afterburner taking away stealth, and oh, yeah, that Brazilian missile engine. You want to use all that to try to muddle the conversation so people forget who's right, who's wrong, who said what, and what it was all about. But this isn't Yahoo comments; people here can read and are knowledgeable, so everyone reading this knows you're wrong and sees you continuously embarrassing yourself. The only way for you to get out is to stop digging yourself deeper and accept that you screwed up. You don't have to write a public apology; you can just stop.
 

nemo

Junior Member
The is a simple reason why things like engines does not scale easily -- mathematics.

Suppose you have an engine, and you wanted to scale up each dimension by 2. The surface area is then increased 4 times while the volume (and mass by assumption) is increased 8 times. So achieve the same TWR, the nozzle must achieve twice as much thrust per unit area. This is definitely not trivial.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
The is a simple reason why things like engines does not scale easily -- mathematics.

Suppose you have an engine, and you wanted to scale up each dimension by 2. The surface area is then increased 4 times while the volume (and mass by assumption) is increased 8 times. So achieve the same TWR, the nozzle must achieve twice as much thrust per unit area. This is definitely not trivial.
??

Thrust weight ratio is not measured by unit, it's total amount of thrust generated by the engine so a larger engine is a lot easier to develop certain amount of thrust since weight does not gain proportional to size since while you can create a larger cavity for combustion to increase thrust.
 

b787

Captain
Let's just say this: if China wanted to scale up WS-10 into an engine usable for a stealth bomber, but it wanted to keep the TWR constant, except push the thrust to 300kN, it would be about as difficult as designing a new engine. A leap in material science is unquestionably needed and that engine would be far more sophisticated than the original WS-10. But by your definition, they'd be the same cus they have the same TWR, just like how the RC ebay toy for $34 is about the same, a lil better than F135 because it has slightly higher TWR.

Is not scaling up, turbines like TJ-200 or TJ100, have less parts than a large turbine like NK-25, but by weight, they need to generate the same or even more thrust to weight ratio than a large turbine


This TJ100 made by a Chech company will have less parts than WS-10, so each blade needs to generate more thust than the blade of NK-25
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you can see in this cutaway, the Tr-3500 is far less complex in the number of blades than NK-32
microturbine Tr-3500
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Jet engine for Tu-160
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A larger engine gets fatter, needs more blades

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So TJ-200 needs to generate a lot of thrust with less parts, it has a thrust to weight ratio of 1:10, pretty impresive since it weighs 10 kg, but the thrust is merely 100 kg, the NK-144 used on Tu-144, has much more blades.
on NK-32 it has a SFC of (supersonic) 1.70 kg/kgf/hour (subsonic): 0.72-0.73 kg/kgf/hour and a total Afterburning thrust: 25 000 kgf (55,000 lbf, 245 kN) and a TWR of 1:7.35

TJ-200 has a Specific Consumption: 1.36 kg/kgf/h, a Weight of 10Kg and a TWR of 1:10

So to put it mildly, increasing the weight or reducing the weight is not important but how efficient its blades are generating thrust, on larger engines they burn more fuel since the engine is larger and heavier, it means a larger aircraft too.


F-119 for that is 5th generation engine is relatively small and has a TWR of 1:9+
 

superdog

Junior Member
??

Thrust weight ratio is not measured by unit, it's total amount of thrust generated by the engine so a larger engine is a lot easier to develop certain amount of thrust since weight does not gain proportional to size since while you can create a larger cavity for combustion to increase thrust.
No, it is much harder for larger engines to develop the same TWR as significantly smaller engines.

Strictly speaking neither thrust nor structural weight increase proportionally to volume, but roughly speaking their rate of increase is closer to the rate of increase in volume, rather than to area or length. In addition, as size increases, structural weight increases at a higher rate than the increase in volume or thrust (assuming similar materials, design skills, and engine type).

Your assumption that "weight does not gain proportional to size since while you can create a larger cavity......" is wrong because if you use the same thickness of materials to make larger fan blades, axles or casing, your engine will quickly fall apart. This is especially true for fan blades because you're dealing with not just the material's own weight but also an extremely strong centrifugal force proportional to its radius.

Even for static parts, an increase in size means more material strength will be used to support the structure's own weight, therefore, if you use the same material, the total volume of solid parts will need to increase faster than the internal volume of the engine.

This is the same reason why you can find insects or even birds with extremely long and slender legs, but rhinos and elephants can only walk with thick and stubby legs. If you enlarge slender leg animals to the size of an elephant they will immediately collapse. An ant can have an extremely high "TWR" (how much it can lift in proportion to its bodyweight) compared to an elephant, that doesn't mean the ant was "designed" more intelligently than the elephant. It was just the law of physics.

Besides weight, you're also dealing with the challenge in material tolerance and fabrication. It is relatively easy to fabricate small parts in exotic materials (e.g. single crystal alloys), but it is significantly more difficult and sometimes exponentially more expensive to make the same part twice the size while still meeting performance and durability requirements. Controlling fracture and creep deformation becomes harder to do as you scale up, as well as designing tolerances for thermal expansion. Sometimes this become impossible and you'll have to develop even more exotic materials, increase the number of parts, and change the overall design.

Let me reiterate what I said before, in case somebody didn't see it at the end of last page:

You can't directly compare the "advanceness" or "generation" of engines in different thrust classes just by looking at their TWR numbers.

For example, the J85 with afterburner can reach a TWR between 7-8, and the F-100/110 with afterburner can also achieve a TWR between 7-8, but they're not really the same generation of engines, and they're not "equally advanced" or "equally difficult to develop". There are also special use turbojet engines than can reach insane TWR, such as the RD-41 that the Russians produced back in the 1980s, it has a TWR of 14 or above. You can push the TWR way up by greatly reducing overall engine size or by reducing durability, the TWR number alone is not indicative of how advanced an engine is. Only when comparing engines in similar thrust class and usage can you use TWR to compare how advanced the engine is. Even then, TWR is not the only determining factor, just a quick indicator.​
 
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b787

Captain
You can't directly compare the "advanceness" or "generation" of engines in different thrust classes just by looking at their TWR numbers.

it is a false statement trying to justify the Chinese superiority in WS-10, all engines are divided in generations and you can prove it easily

TF-30 used on F-14 had a TWR of 6:1 TF-34 used on viking S-3 has a TWR of 5.6:1 these are 1960s engines
another 1960 engine is AI-25 used in JL-8 also from the 1960s

Modern engines can achieve rates of 9:1 or even 10:1, but in the 1950s Vk-3 only achieved 4:1

The engines you mention are of Yak-141, RD-41, which makes it contemporary of Al-31 a fourth generation and it was not intended for cruise but only as a lift engine, first tested on Yak-141 on 1987, so if you want to compare Yak-141 is only generation behind of F-35B, which uses 5th generation engine


I suggest you before trying to prove your forumlore go a check all the engines built since 1940s to the present

 
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