China's SCS Strategy Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's pretty clear that western media, and the people who believe it, invent their own narratives on China (among other issues). Inconvenient facts are simply ignored.

There has always been anti-Chinese sentiments in the West, but we have seen a sharp rise in recent years. From the economy to housing to foreign policy, the media blames China for engaging in capitalist behavior that the West has indulged in for decades (if not centuries!).

No amount of justification and rationalization can hide the fact that such sentiments are based on ignorance and bigotry.


Yes it's panic time. The rise of China puts into question everything they believe because China is not following the script of how things they think are suppose to work. Just like yesterday there's a story on BBC how the West had contact with China over a thousand years before Marco Polo making claim the West is why China exists. Apparently their logic is the making terracotta warriors were from learning from the Greeks because China didn't make life size statues. So somehow because the Greeks made life size statues, the Chinese must've learned it from them. And there was a story a right before that Chinese civilization was Egyptian in origin. Even before that, Caucasian mummies found in China's Western deserts was the proof that China wouldn't be around if it weren't for the West? It's like men who abuse their wives and girlfriends. They stay in control because all what these men do is tell them how they're worthless without them in order to brainwash them into thinking they cannot do anything without them. And that's how the abuser stays in control. Complaining about human rights , democracy, this story... they're all just excuses and distractions because the sole goal is the interpretation of reality to the Chinese. The people they hate in this world and people they like are divided by simply who they couldn't conquer and those they did. They instilled their interpretation of reality on those they conquered.
 

balance

Junior Member
I heard that the Chinese discovered America long before Columbus, right? Because you can see Asian DNA in Native Americans (lol).

I remember using tiny vague historical "evidence" to suggest primacy for 3 purposes:
1. To tell everybody: we are brothers and sisters, after fall. Don't fight!
2. To tell everybody: if we go there and take the land, we are taking what is rightfully ours and has been wrongfully taken from us.
3. To tell everybody: although they are strong now, they can't be that strong without our help. No matter what, we influence the whole world from the beginning of time until today.

I suspect the 3rd purpose is the most likely. The goal is to make your citizens feel good about themselves despite rising poverty and income inequality. You might not be rich but hey, your ancestors played a big part in history. You are somebody after all. Even if you see the descendants of whom your forefathers help are richer than you, you help them be rich! You are a generous person. Your poverty is by your choice. Their riches are due to their ingratitude and short memory of your forefathers' generous and unselfish help. You are a morally superior being after all. That will not change until the end of history. Relax and sleep!

People feel good about themselves are good the for the stability of the government. No government or rich people want a rebellion or uprising. It's bad for everybody.

The lesson learned? Don't take any revisionists historical evidence too seriously and too quickly. Put it in the proper socio-historico-economic context. That's what it is. Facts are always there. Presented facts always have purposes. This forum exists to unveil those purposes, whether they are benign or malicious.

Cheers!
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Some westerner say ancient Greeks influenced ancient Chinese statues, and some folks get their knickers twisted in knots, followed by all manners of cockeyed conspiracy theories. Color me underwhelmed.

Rational people might think, like academics everywhere, Professor Nickel published an edgy paper for discussions, debate, notoriety, and maybe a grant or two. I don't ascribe to Nickel's theory, at least not without a lot more data and evidence, but ancient humans traded with each other far more than previously thought, so it's not at all unusual or unbelievable that civilizations influenced each other in culture, language, technology, and yes, art.

I understand the notion just because you are paranoid schizophrenics doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to get you. But, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and in this case, it’s a cigar.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
It's pretty clear that western media, and the people who believe it, invent their own narratives on China (among other issues). Inconvenient facts are simply ignored.

There has always been anti-Chinese sentiments in the West, but we have seen a sharp rise in recent years. From the economy to housing to foreign policy, the media blames China for engaging in capitalist behavior that the West has indulged in for decades (if not centuries!).

No amount of justification and rationalization can hide the fact that such sentiments are based on ignorance and bigotry.

That's why we need to continue the fight to eliminate such distasteful narratives and view points that could hurt the peaceful relations between the Chinese people and Westerners by shining a light and calling out the haters.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Some westerner say ancient Greeks influenced ancient Chinese statues, and some folks get their knickers twisted in knots, followed by all manners of cockeyed conspiracy theories. Color me underwhelmed.

Rational people might think, like academics everywhere, Professor Nickel published an edgy paper for discussions, debate, notoriety, and maybe a grant or two. I don't ascribe to Nickel's theory, at least not without a lot more data and evidence, but ancient humans traded with each other far more than previously thought, so it's not at all unusual or unbelievable that civilizations influenced each other in culture, language, technology, and yes, art.

I understand the notion just because you are paranoid schizophrenics doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to get you. But, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and in this case, it’s a cigar.

Yes, but many times the flow of knowledge,science, art, architecture, etc, has always been flowing through the silk road from EAST to WEST, not the other way around like certain pundits who wants to spin things around as if China didn't exist if it weren't for ancient Western civilization.
 

weig2000

Captain
Frankly, I don't get why Thai King's death is necessarily associated with Obama's Asia pivot. The target of the Asia pivot is obviously China, yet Thailand has always been friendly with China whether it was during Cold War or after. China has no territory dispute with Thailand in SCS or anywhere. So it would have to be extremely imaginary to count Thailand in any potential China-containment alliance.

Anyhow, this report tries to give a more comprehensive assessment of ASEAN countries from a pivot perspective. The conclusion: not good.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


2016-10-14T020847Z_2_LYNXNPEC9D050_RTROPTP_2_THAILAND-KING-USA-ASIA.JPG.cf.jpg

View photos
A portrait of Thailand's King Bhumibol Adulyadej stands as people memorialize his death at the Wat Thai of Los Angeles temple in Los Angeles, California, U.S., October 13, 2016. REUTERS/Patrick T. Fallon
By David Brunnstrom

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The death of Thailand's King Bhumibol Adulyadej on Thursday adds a new layer of uncertainty to U.S. President Barack Obama's faltering "pivot" to Asia less than a month before the Nov. 8 U.S. presidential elections.

The king was important in cementing the long-standing alliance between the United States and Thailand after World War Two, in a reign that spanned the Vietnam War and development of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), which Washington still considers vital to maintaining its influence in the region.

King Bhumibol's death coincides with faltering momentum in Obama's signature policy of rebalancing the U.S. diplomatic and security focus to the Asia-Pacific region in the face of China's rapid rise.

The main economic pillar of the rebalance, the 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, is languishing in the U.S. Congress with no guarantee that Obama will be able to push it through before leaving the presidency to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, both of whom say they oppose the deal.

Clinton, as secretary of state under fellow-Democrat Obama from 2009-13, was one of the architects of the policy but Republican Trump has questioned the extent to which he would maintain the U.S. security commitment to East Asia.

Obama's efforts to boost security ties with Southeast Asia have come in response to China's pursuit of territorial claims in the South China Sea, a vital strategic waterway.

However, a torrent of anti-American rhetoric from new Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte has cast doubt on the U.S. military relationship with Manila just months after Washington reached an agreement on rotating access to bases in the country.

Other Southeast Asian countries, such as Indonesia and Malaysia, are focused on internal political issues and are avoiding playing any leadership role in ASEAN, while even traditionally reliable regional ally Australia is treading carefully to avoid jeopardizing its economic ties with Beijing.

Thailand was already occupying a back seat in regional affairs following a 2014 military coup seen as a means to maintain stability during the king's long illness. Thailand is expected to turn further inward during a prolonged mourning period and potentially politically fragile royal succession.

King Bhumibol's son, Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn, who is expected to become Thailand's new king, lacks the strong connection to the United States of his father, who was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Obama offered condolences to the Thai people and the King's family, calling King Bhumibol "a tireless champion of his country's development."

Obama's former top Asia adviser, Evan Medeiros, now at the Eurasia Group, said the mourning process would likely slow a return to democratic government and Prince Vajiralongkorn was a source of "profound uncertainty."

"He’s such an unknown, unpredictable figure," he said.

U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner said the United States and Thailand had been close friends for two centuries.

"Our friendship and our partnership have weathered many challenges … we expect it to continue to grow stronger," Toner told a regular news briefing.

While the United States backed a return to democracy, Toner said it would be "premature... to lay our expectations for the near term" as Thailand mourned.

MUCH HAS CHANGED

While Washington condemned the 2014 coup, it has kept security ties with Bangkok, particularly through annual military exercises called Cobra Gold.

"The fact that we have been able to remain closely tethered and stayed largely on track with Cobra Gold and other cooperative efforts, notwithstanding the military takeover ... is testament to the strong roots we have put down and the work that we’re doing,” the senior U.S. diplomat for Asia, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Russel, said on Wednesday.

Murray Hiebert of Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, said much had changed since Obama announced his pivot policy in 2011.

"The king's death adds to uncertainty in Southeast Asia, a region in considerable flux already. This makes the U.S. rebalance to Asia more difficult because the situation in so many countries is that of 'wait and see.'

"When the pivot started, you had Thailand engaged, a new leader in Malaysia who wanted to engage, you had Aquino coming in the Philippines and very forward-leaning internationally and very open to the U.S.; you had an internationalist president in Indonesia. It was a rather different dynamic."

King Bhumibol's death means Washington finds itself having to rely even more on former foe Vietnam for any kind of strategic ballast in the region.

"The Vietnamese are providing the dynamism when it comes to strategic thinking," U.S. Ambassador to Vietnam Ted Osius said in Washington on Tuesday.

"Indonesia is very internally focused right now ... Thailand is very internally focused, and Malaysia has a rolling political crisis," he continued.

"I don’t know exactly what direction the Philippines is headed; Singapore has a lot of strategic thinkers but it’s a city state; I don’t think you can really count on Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar to provide the strategic engine for ASEAN."

There appears little prospect for now, however, that Vietnam would be willing to open its doors further to the U.S. military should the deal with the Philippines run into problems, given past animosities and concerns about China.

“I do not expect the Vietnamese calculation to be, ‘Oh, the Philippines is doing whatever it’s doing, let’s race full steam ahead with the United States.’ No, that’s not about to happen," Osius said.

"The Vietnamese have been very measured in the pace at which they have expanded the security relationship."

Hiebert said Asian countries remain keen on the U.S. pivot, given their worries about China, but the pace was likely to flag further, presenting a tougher task to revive the initiative once Obama leaves power.

"I wouldn't declare the pivot dead ... I think there's still quite a bit of interest in the U.S., but some of the sort of dynamism that we saw earlier about building the region is a little bit diminished right now," he said.

(Reporting by David Brunnstrom; additional reporting by Matt Spetalnick; Editing by John Walcott, James Dalgleish and Grant McCool)
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Yes, but many times the flow of knowledge,science, art, architecture, etc, has always been flowing through the silk road from EAST to WEST, not the other way around like certain pundits who wants to spin things around as if China didn't exist if it weren't for ancient Western civilization.


It's also a tremendous leap to assume just because one culture had life size statues and then there's another culture that creates life size statues afterwards, they must have copied it from them. Like it's hard for human nature to appeal one's own vanity to make a life size statue? Look at Japanese anime. I hear all the time from people who think those are whites depicted in anime not Japanese. Just because they don't have extremely slanted eyes like they see it? Yeah whites have naturally purple and green hair and big unnatural eyes even for whites therefore they must be white.
 
Frankly, I don't get why Thai King's death is necessarily associated with Obama's Asia pivot. The target of the Asia pivot is obviously China, yet Thailand has always been friendly with China whether it was during Cold War or after. China has no territory dispute with Thailand in SCS or anywhere. So it would have to be extremely imaginary to count Thailand in any potential China-containment alliance.

Anyhow, this report tries to give a more comprehensive assessment of ASEAN countries from a pivot perspective. The conclusion: not good.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

That article just mentions the Thai king's death in passing and doesn't even try to genuinely relate that to the US pivot to Asia.

While Western propaganda, and integral parts of policies like the pivot, dedicate themselves to demonizing China and exacerbating Asian disagreements the fact is most of Asia are on to the colonialist/neo-colonialist divide and conquer ploy and would not trade limited problems with a laissez-faire regional power like China for subjugating their foreign and defense policies, and eventually a lot more, to a colonialist/neo-colonialist expeditionary power like the US.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
That article just mentions the Thai king's death in passing and doesn't even try to genuinely relate that to the US pivot to Asia.

While Western propaganda, and integral parts of policies like the pivot, dedicate themselves to demonizing China and exacerbating Asian disagreements the fact is most of Asia are on to the colonialist/neo-colonialist divide and conquer ploy and would not trade limited problems with a laissez-faire regional power like China for subjugating their foreign and defense policies, and eventually a lot more, to a colonialist/neo-colonialist expeditionary power like the US.
The lame stream Western media demonizes China not necessarily to support some nefarious Washington agenda, but because most are lazy lemmings wedded in group think, and Red China is a target-rich environment.

I'll admit US is pursuing its national interests, and The Pivot is latest visible thrust, supported by hosts of benign and malignant agencies and alliances, both visible and invisible to the public. But, what of it? That's what countries do, as they should. Great powers do it with bigger footprints. Nothing unusual about it.

China, on the other hand, isn't the "laissez-faire" entity you claim. Quite to the contrary. Like US and every other great power in history, China has and will continue to pursue their national interests with gusto. In the South China Sea, it will continue to divide ASEAN when it feels the need, with the short-term objective of having the strongest presence in the SCS, and medium-term objective of making SCS the Sino-Caribbean (just like the US did in the Greater Caribbean). The Red Dynasty's long-term objective is likely to leverage the Sino-Caribbean and establish a Sino-Monroe Doctrine, followed by ejecting the US from Asia. So, China is hardly laissez-faire in SCS & SE Asia; not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow.
 
Top