Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
That is not a truthful statement, but bias.

You can not compare both aircraft without manuals, test flights, combat operational tactics and pilot experience and training.

If you have ever seen historical accounts of combat aircraft for example Hellcat Versus Hayate, Corsair versus Shiden, Me-109 versus Spitfire, MiG-21 versus F-4, A-4 versus Harrier and so on, you will know such a coarse compassion is as invalid as the Russian statements are.

The Hayate for Example was an excellent aircraft, it was much better than the Hellcat, but it never operated in the ideal conditions it must had operated.
So it is not everything what is written in the manual.
Combat record also lies many things, you will find contradictory claims too.
It will depend who also makes the compassion, i have read F-5 assessments done in Russia, they say for example at some speeds the F-5 was better than the MiG-21 and MiG-23, and Israeli Assesments of MiG-21, they say practically the MiG-21 was better than the Mirage III but the Arab pilots were not using it efficiently.

For example tactics are also important the Zero was practically much more maneuverable than the Hellcat but it was flimsy and with hit and run tactics the F-6F was definitely superior, so if you were a Hellcat pilot the best tactic was hit and run, same tactic a MiG-23 would need against the F-16, or a F-15 against a MiG-29, so it is not like both of you are claiming, it is far more complex.

It also depends in the versions, some Fw-190 were superior to some Spitfire variants some were not, the FW-190A was superior only to some Spitfire versions, not all.

To claim now F-22 is superior to PAKFA now is as invalid as to do the opposite and claim PAKFA is superior.

That is not a truthful statement, but bias.

You can not compare both aircraft without manuals, test flights, combat operational tactics and pilot experience and training.

If you have ever seen historical accounts of combat aircraft for example Hellcat Versus Hayate, Corsair versus Shiden, Me-109 versus Spitfire, MiG-21 versus F-4, A-4 versus Harrier and so on, you will know such a coarse compassion is as invalid as the Russian statements are.

The Hayate for Example was an excellent aircraft, it was much better than the Hellcat, but it never operated in the ideal conditions it must had operated.
So it is not everything what is written in the manual.
Combat record also lies many things, you will find contradictory claims too.
It will depend who also makes the compassion, i have read F-5 assessments done in Russia, they say for example at some speeds the F-5 was better than the MiG-21 and MiG-23, and Israeli Assesments of MiG-21, they say practically the MiG-21 was better than the Mirage III but the Arab pilots were not using it efficiently.

For example tactics are also important the Zero was practically much more maneuverable than the Hellcat but it was flimsy and with hit and run tactics the F-6F was definitely superior, so if you were a Hellcat pilot the best tactic was hit and run, same tactic a MiG-23 would need against the F-16, or a F-15 against a MiG-29, so it is not like both of you are claiming, it is far more complex.

It also depends in the versions, some Fw-190 were superior to some Spitfire variants some were not, the FW-190A was superior only to some Spitfire versions, not all.

To claim now F-22 is superior to PAKFA now is as invalid as to do the opposite and claim PAKFA is superior.

No need to take this personally ace??? really there's not, I am taking exception to the "Russian Nonsense" that the T-50 is in any way shape or form, superior to the F-22 as a combat aircraft. There are 5, yes only 5, -1 T-50 prototypes, they are pre-production proto-types.

They have never flown a combat mission, nor even a serious simulation against any potential foes, the USAF has flown ACM against each of the Russian types, Mig-29s, SU-30MKI's, lots of Mig 21's, and that's just the small list.

Everybody who is anybody?? "knows" what the Raptor is capable of, and will do, we intentionally put the Raptor behind the 8-ball on nearly every adversarial engagement, yet it consistently wins.

I love you as a brother, and I love the T-50 as a beautiful airplane, that has a very fine design, and no doubt fly's very well, even in pre-production form, but we have been waiting for a very extended period, for the upgraded -2 prototypes, maybe they are even "pre-production prototypes" to fly, and yet a year later we are still waiting.

Now getting those 5 proto-types back into airworthy condition after lots of strutctural issues and one engine fire that "totaled the center fuselage" of 055 is a big job, and no doubt those who have accomplished that have done a fine job of repairing and reinforcing those aircraft, but to state that "defense analysts have deemed the T-50 superior to the F-22"????? that my boy, is a "bald faced lie", well seeing its the Russians, they wouldn't consider that a Fib would they??? HEH! HEH!

No, just a "slight embellishment komrade"! and going back to WW-II and trying to pick and choose who was better and who was not, well that's "setting up a strawman", you don't need to do that with your friends here on SDF, and we are your friends, and we do tell you the truth, even when you don't want to hear it, but that's what friends are for.

Love ya Bruda, really I do, but every once in a while, this thread needs a serious "reality check"!
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
That is not a truthful statement, but bias.
It is truthful that they have such bias...therefore the statement is truthful.

They are projecting what they would so desperately like to see occur, as if though it were fact.

Only time will tell that...and I am more than willing, from what we have already seen, to let father time tell the tale.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Here, let me help with the translation so it makes sense...

"most Russian fan boy analysts have deemed the T-50 "better" than the F-22

There...now it is a truthful statement.

The Sino Defense Post of the Month award! right here, not only accurate, but "MADE MY DAY", course I am always "biased", Love you bud, and I'm so proud of you every day, and I am so thankful for every day that we get to spend together.

And I just love it, when my two favorite aircraft engineer/magazine writer posters are in agreement with anything I say, no matter how trivial. Good company, and B787, I consider you good company to0 brother, and I hate it when we are not in full accord, and I very much appreciated your PM the other day, these are no doubt "Biblical Times and Seasons". Really, you are a very bright lad, I just wish you would "give us a shot" at a little credibility here, we do know what we are talking about, and no this is not "biased", its just the building airplanes in the real world, "facts of life".
 

b787

Captain
I am taking exception to the "Russian Nonsense" that the T-50 is in any way shape or form, superior to the F-22 as a combat aircraft. There are 5, yes only 5, -1 T-50 prototypes, they are pre-production proto-types.
!
compare aircraft is always difficult for many reasons, in WWII for example the Japanese aircraft were considered inferior to western types until the advent of the Zero, and the Zero was not even the best aircraft, the Ki-84 Hayate was superb, when well flown and maintained defeated the Hellcat easily.

In Korea practically the MiG-15 was superior to all western jet aircraft except the F-86 and the Sabre was only better in some departments, flown by Russian pilots the MiG-15 in Korea was comparable to the F-86 there are plenty of information regarding this.

Aircraft can be compared if you have both aircraft without flight restrictions, the MiG-21 for exampple was flown that way in the USA and the same the MiG-29 in both the USA and Germany and now other NATO countries like Poland.

The PAKFA has only been flown in Russia, the F-22 only by American pilots, in the world there are not pilots who have flown both.

If you have pilots like Paul Metz and Sergei Bogdan talking and comparing both aircraft and flying each other aircraft, you could say an objective opinion.

The last time it passed that in war was in the Korean war when a MiG-15 flew to South Korean forces and a F-86 was captured by North Korean forces and allies.

It is very hard to have an truthful assessment because in reality all aircraft have weaknesses, even USAF pilots knew tangling against a MiG-29 in close fight was risky, the best was always use BVR weapons, the winning pilot like in all in life is knows he has to know his strengths and weaknesses and know his rival`s weaknesses and strengths.
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
compare aircraft is always difficult for many reasons, in WWII for example the Japanese aircraft were considered inferior to western types until the advent of the Zero, and the Zero was not even the best aircraft, the Ki-84 Hayate was superb, when well flown and maintained defeated the Hellcat easily.

In Korea practically the MiG-15 was superior to all western jet aircraft except the F-86 and the Sabre was only better in some departments, flown by Russian pilots the MiG-15 in Korea was comparable to the F-86 there are plenty of information regarding this.

Aircraft can be compared if you have both aircraft without flight restrictions, the MiG-21 for exampple was flown that way in the USA and the same the MiG-29 in both the USA and Germany and now other NATO countries like Poland.

The PAKFA has only been flown in Russia, the F-22 only by American pilots, in the world there are not pilots who have flown both.

If you have pilots like Paul Metz and Sergei Bogdan talking and comparing both aircraft and flying each other aircraft, you could say an objective opinion.

The last time it passed that in war was in the Korean war when a MiG-15 flew to South Korean forces and a F-86 was captured by North Korean forces and allies.

It is very hard to have an truthful assessment because in reality all aircraft have weaknesses, even USAF pilots knew tangling against a MiG-29 in close fight was risky, the best was always use BVR weapons, the winning pilot like in all in life is knows he has to know his strengths and weaknesses and know his rival`s weaknesses and strengths.
see link
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B787, the Air Force Magazine is always truthful and honest in assessing any aircraft, the articles written by pilots are insightful, accurate, and well written. The F-22 meets threat aircraft every day, and defeats them all on a level playing field, the F-22 is an over whelming aircraft, to deny this, is to project some type of "alternative reality" onto the truth.

The F-22 continues to dominate all known and anticipated threats, even if we assume that they in fact will meet "some" of their "stated objectives". Anybody can lose on a bad day, but not everyone can continue to win on those bad days, but the F-22 driver still does most consistently, and history has already proven the F-22 an incredible, even overwhelming success.

those of you who know me, know I almost always qualify every statement with a "set of circumstances" that could/will turn the tables.

I will not give a disclaimer against the F-22, except to say the greatest threat it will ever face is "God's Righteous Judgement", on that day, it "will lose", but it is as you say in "God's Hand's", LOL.

so as you say, "we shall see", Heh! Heh! and yes, I AM "SMIRKING"! sorry
 

bruceb1959

Junior Member
Registered Member
compare aircraft is always difficult for many reasons, in WWII for example the Japanese aircraft were considered inferior to western types until the advent of the Zero, and the Zero was not even the best aircraft, the Ki-84 Hayate was superb, when well flown and maintained defeated the Hellcat easily.

In Korea practically the MiG-15 was superior to all western jet aircraft except the F-86 and the Sabre was only better in some departments, flown by Russian pilots the MiG-15 in Korea was comparable to the F-86 there are plenty of information regarding this.

Aircraft can be compared if you have both aircraft without flight restrictions, the MiG-21 for exampple was flown that way in the USA and the same the MiG-29 in both the USA and Germany and now other NATO countries like Poland.

The PAKFA has only been flown in Russia, the F-22 only by American pilots, in the world there are not pilots who have flown both.

If you have pilots like Paul Metz and Sergei Bogdan talking and comparing both aircraft and flying each other aircraft, you could say an objective opinion.

The last time it passed that in war was in the Korean war when a MiG-15 flew to South Korean forces and a F-86 was captured by North Korean forces and allies.

It is very hard to have an truthful assessment because in reality all aircraft have weaknesses, even USAF pilots knew tangling against a MiG-29 in close fight was risky, the best was always use BVR weapons, the winning pilot like in all in life is knows he has to know his strengths and weaknesses and know his rival`s weaknesses and strengths.
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What you say has some merit, but the WWII and Korean/Vietnam war examples you quote are based on real life experience and war fighting examples. Whilst there is a wealth of data available concerning the F22 - in terms of its overall performance, LO technology/radar signature/networkability etc., there is little substantive detail about the the PAK-FA. It may well prove to be that that the PAK FA is a worthy rival to the F22, but currently there is little empirical evidence to support this. Hopefully as time goes on and we learn more of this undoubtably fine aircraft's capabilities, more accurate comparisons can be made.
 

b787

Captain
What you say has some merit, but the WWII and Korean/Vietnam war examples you quote are based on real life experience and war fighting examples. Whilst there is a wealth of data available concerning the F22 - in terms of its overall performance, LO technology/radar signature/networkability etc., there is little substantive detail about the the PAK-FA. It may well prove to be that that the PAK FA is a worthy rival to the F22, but currently there is little empirical evidence to support this. Hopefully as time goes on and we learn more of this undoubtably fine aircraft's capabilities, more accurate comparisons can be made.
Well there are reports by Kret and Rostec that say PAKFA is as good if not better than the F-22.
If you have followed aviation and Russian aviation for years, you know that in 1982 the rumors of MiG-29 and Su-27 were considered inferior to the F-15 and F-16.

Can you expect better from modern sources? no, i do not expect they will say it is better, but my whole point is after years the aircraft are assessed in a more objective manner.

For example after more than 70 years you will find the Me-109 and Spitfire are more or less well assessed.

Same the MiG-15 versus the Sabre F-86.

Today if you read even Russian sources from time to time you will see they are objective of aircraft like MiG-23, MiG-21, MiG-15 or Il-2.

But try to watch a video program like Dogfights from the Discovery Channel and they never ever show you defeats, only victories, so i do not expect the west give good assessments with such bias.

Just look at movies like the red tails, tell me when were the P-51 trashing Me-262s like they show in the movie, it is well known the Me-262 was untouchable by the P-51 most of the time.
It is not that the Russians do not claim PAKFA is much better than F-22, after all it is their plane do you expect they will say it is inferior? same the Americans, do you expect them to say F-22 is worse? but if you want to be unbiased and objective, then you will find things are harder to know
 

b787

Captain
What you say has some merit, but the WWII and Korean/Vietnam war examples you quote are based on real life experience and war fighting examples. Whilst there is a wealth of data available concerning the F22 - in terms of its overall performance, LO technology/radar signature/networkability etc., there is little substantive detail about the the PAK-FA. It may well prove to be that that the PAK FA is a worthy rival to the F22, but currently there is little empirical evidence to support this. Hopefully as time goes on and we learn more of this undoubtably fine aircraft's capabilities, more accurate comparisons can be made.
official Russian source see how the portrait PAKFA beating F-22

14 JAN 2014
The T-50 Fighter will feature even greater stealth capabilities
Thanks to a new design solution the PAK FA fighter has moved ahead of the American F-22 in its stealth capabilities


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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You still don't see it, don't You ??

They must say all these things since they are a state-owned sales and marketing company (... at least they act like that) and they want to sell this bird. Have You ever seen a LM, Dassault or €Fighter sales-prospect ??? Did You ever read something negative from them about their own product.

But You surely take is for granted since it is "official" !
Deino
 
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