Low-cost, muti-role aircraft for small militaries

thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
Miragedriver said:
With that said, if an aircraft where available today similar to the F-5E or the Mirage III/Kfir (in the 18 to 22 million price range) there would be sales in the 1,000 to 2,000 unit range. These aircraft had a low acquisition cost and a low operational/maintenance cost which makes them very attractive to air forces on a budget or for 2nd tier air force such as Taiwan of South Korea, to supplement their best aircraft. These aircraft would also be essential in any potential conflict as attrition would set in.
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Actually, Mirage was not considered as "cheap" fighter in its heyday . It was cheaper then F-4, but Phantom was very heavy and very sophisticated aircraft at that time, almost like F-22 today . Same could be said about F-5, its supposed successor F-20 was competing with F-16 , and neither of them was really a budget fighter . Both Mirage III, Kfir , Mirage F1, and various F-5 variants were more expensive then Mig-21, and later even some variants of Mig-23 .

In modern times I doubt any Western aircraft manufacturer could go lower then F-16 Block 60 or Gripen . And users of Chinese and Russian equipment actually want more capabilities, not lower prices for their JF-17, Mig-29s etc ..
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
TerraN_EmpirE said:
I wouldn't place much hope in Dassault. Outside of the nEUROn Drone and the Rafale They seem uninterested in expanding there line. And price wise the Rafale is comparable to F35. And Mig is state owned by Russia which digs up it's own issues.
Also your list has a issue Taiwan.
The ROC is a Kiss of death for partnerships As the PRC treats Taiwan like a Over possessive Would be High school Jock Bully in a one sided Romance. If you so much as look in Taiwan's Direction and Smirk Expect a Political and Possibly Economic swirly or at the very least Locker Knocker time. The PRC will do what ever it can to Isolate Taiwan from arms sales and Strategic partnerships. The US has gotten away with it as The US is a full Superpower and the PRC can't Cut it's ties to the US with out opening it's own wrists but Vietnam and Philippines or Argentina Brazil and Peru and the Ecta of your list Don't have the same level of leeway.
Also LM gets knocked in the Press by Critics but It's no better or worse then any other Contractor which makes me Think FA50 has a chance especially it KAI is the Prime contractor
The Textron Cessna Scorpion opens up a medium grade western attacker and manned alternative as well as possible point of start for Drones.
As well as the SAAB Gripen Which although the NG price today is pretty steep I am sure older units will become more available
Or for the Really Down and Out perhaps.... BIG PERHAPS India's HAL Tejas will actually succeed and be open for export.
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Well we can take Taiwan out of any partnership and Dassault out as a design firm. The premise that developing nation could not feasibly get a an advanced aircraft design made without some sort of outside assistance from a major aircraft manufacturer and could not justify the cost of construction without some sort of consortium of nations to at least take advantage of the economies of scale.


On a side note the Tejas will probably just end up as an interesting footnote in aviation history. If India does obtain the license to manufacture the F-16, what’s the point of the Tejas?
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
thunderchief said:
Actually, Mirage was not considered as "cheap" fighter in its heyday . It was cheaper then F-4, but Phantom was very heavy and very sophisticated aircraft at that time, almost like F-22 today . Same could be said about F-5, its supposed successor F-20 was competing with F-16 , and neither of them was really a budget fighter . Both Mirage III, Kfir , Mirage F1, and various F-5 variants were more expensive then Mig-21, and later even some variants of Mig-23 .

In modern times I doubt any Western aircraft manufacturer could go lower then F-16 Block 60 or Gripen . And users of Chinese and Russian equipment actually want more capabilities, not lower prices for their JF-17, Mig-29s etc ..
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Prices are from Wikipedia then using CPI inflation Calculator

F-5E: US$2.1 million, 1972 would be US$12.1 million in 2016 dollars

Dassault Mirage III: 3.0 million in 1968 would be US$20.78 million in 2016 dollars

F-15E: US$27.9 million in 1998 would be US$41.3 million in 2016 dollars
 
A

aksha

Captain
On a side note the Tejas will probably just end up as an interesting footnote in aviation history. If India does obtain the license to manufacture the F-16, what’s the point of the Tejas?
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the tejas has a firm order of 120 fighters .
1st squadron has been created with 3 fighters and 1 combat capable trainer .
should get 4 more fighters by the end of this year.
when all are inducted the tejas will be the second most fighter aircraft type in the IAF after the su 30 mki
if India buys the F16 , it won't affect the numbers of the tejas, rather it is because of reduced numbers of rafale coming in due to the cost.

the production capacity of the Tejas stands at 8 this year and the next and 16 beginning from the year after.

the experience gained from the tejas will be useful for the AMCA project


the first 4 aircraft inducted No.45 squadron
YUCwaB5.jpg


r32gQ0x.jpg



Tejas flying with Python-5
1ToYBS9.jpg


Tejas Mk1 twin seater (PV-6) that was handed over to No.45 'Flying Daggers' squadron. Its a fully combat capable trainer.
5SOSchN.jpg


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1099160340122588
 
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A

aksha

Captain
This has never stopped the Indians form reducing or canceling orders of combat aircraft in the past. The smaller number of Tejas ordered will just increase the unit cost and eventually make the F-16 more attractive.
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by the time the they set up the F16 production line in india (i.e if india accepts the offer,big if) , the tejas production line will be cranking out fighters at its maximum capacity.

small number?? no other aircraft will have a higher no. of orderAir Force in the Indian other than the su30mki.

the tejas production line already exists and is producing aircraft , 8 per year. the f16 production line in india doesn't.

then there is there is the matter of politics
any indian government which cancels the tejas production will find itself cancelled in the next elections.
the media and the opposition will lash out at the government allegeing corruption (imagined or not).

unless the ruling party has political suicide on their minds the tejas will be inducted. AS PLANNED.

any one who knows the indian political landscape will tell you the above.


all factors considered , i will say the the order for 120 tejas fighters is set in stone
 
Miragedriver

Miragedriver

Brigadier
aksha said:
by the time the they set up the F16 production line in india (i.e if india accepts the offer,big if) , the tejas production line will be cranking out fighters at its maximum capacity.

small number?? no other aircraft will have a higher no. of orderAir Force in the Indian other than the su30mki.

the tejas production line already exists and is producing aircraft , 8 per year. the f16 production line in india doesn't.

then there is there is the matter of politics
any indian government which cancels the tejas production will find itself cancelled in the next elections.
the media and the opposition will lash out at the government allegeing corruption (imagined or not).

unless the ruling party has political suicide on their minds the tejas will be inducted. AS PLANNED.

any one who knows the indian political landscape will tell you the above.


all factors considered , i will say the the order for 120 tejas fighters is set in stone
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Well I guess time will tell. If the F-16 order goes thru and based on past track record I'm doubtful.

We will revisit your prediction to see if it has come to fruition. However at 8 aircraft per year it will take 12.8 years to produce 120 aircraft (counting the 17 already produced)

Also there is no need to bold your text to insinuate shouting I am perfectly capable of hearing and comprehending your argument.

We can revisit this discussion in five years to see how the Tejas is progressing, or not.
 
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