Israel attacks Gaza Strip

Cygnus X-1

New Member
The border region between Israel and Lebanon is mountainous with numerous caves and ideal terrain for guerrilla fighters as they will undoubtedly know the area very well. I doubt the israeli's will have the luxury of heavy armour.

Secondly, I fail to see how israel will achieve it's aims of destroying hezbollah; they can just simply vanish into the population, wait a couple of months and then start their attacks again.

Their current course of action with 'targetted' airstrikes, aside from causing a lot of damage to infrastructure, has proven to be largely ineffective - I don't know the exact figures, but (at the time of writing) of the 350 or so casualties from both sides, roughly only 30 are military!!!

Setting up a buffer zone may not work as it will involve occupying a sovereign land and then politics and UN resolutions get involved. Besides, it will only lure more terrorists into the region and israel will not only find itself fighting Hezbollah, but probably also covert Syrians and Iranians, Lebanese troops who are Hezbollah's Shia bretheren and arab militants from any number of terrorist groups.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
I just noticed some interesting developments from the diplomacy side.

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Israel has said it supports the idea of a new international force in south Lebanon, as diplomatic attempts to end the Middle East crisis gather pace. Defence Minister Amir Peretz suggested such a force could be led by Nato, an idea not yet raised during the crisis.

He spoke during a meeting with the German foreign minister. French and British ministers are also in Israel. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is due in the region on Monday on a much-anticipated visit.

Mr Peretz said Israel wanted the Lebanese army deployed in the south to prevent Hezbollah from operating in the border area, from where it has fired hundreds of rockets into Israel. "But we understand that we are talking about a weak army and that in the mid-term period Israel will have to accept a multinational force," he told German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

So they've at least agreed to a peacekeeping force in principle, now. Hopefully Condi will be able to bash some heads together and get the little kiddies to stop fighting.
 

sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Hmmm..............though this might be a political disaster, it might be a very big military and social success:
Does Israel have paratroopers? If so, what if instead of invading from the South, and letting people go North and keep hiding, land paratroopers from the North and have them head home? That way, it will be harder for Hizbullah to leave and fight another day.
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Anyone thinks this is becoming "Peace of Hizbullah"?
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
sumdud said:
Hmmm..............though this might be a political disaster, it might be a very big military and social success:
Does Israel have paratroopers? If so, what if instead of invading from the South, and letting people go North and keep hiding, land paratroopers from the North and have them head home? That way, it will be harder for Hizbullah to leave and fight another day.
-------
Anyone thinks this is becoming "Peace of Hizbullah"?

By far the simplistic view of the whole conflict. Drop em down without the things that make IDF more deadly and effective that is their armour and artillery. leave them at the mercy of hizbollah. Also the whole idea of not letting Hizbollah leave and ifght another day is wrong. THEY are not leaving. Do read what some of the returning soldiers are saying.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
An occupation force has already been rejected by the lebanese sunni's
needless to say the shia will be even more averse.

Sunni Muslim leader rejects deploying NATO
Sister of slain former PM says Hezbollah would resist any perceived occupation

MARK MACKINNON

SIDON, LEBANON -- The deployment of a NATO-led force in southern Lebanon would be rejected by the majority of Lebanese as a form of occupation, and any foreign army would likely be targeted by Hezbollah, one of the country's most prominent politicians said yesterday.

Bahia Hariri, sister of Rafik Hariri, the popular former prime minister who was assassinated last year, dismissed as dangerous the idea of deploying NATO troops in the south of the country to create a buffer zone with Israel and bolster efforts to disarm Hezbollah. The idea of such a force was supported yesterday by both the United States and Israel as a way to end the 12-day old conflict.

Although the idea is still in its infancy, media reports suggest that a force of 10,000 to 20,000 soldiers, headed by France or Turkey, is being contemplated as a way of ending violence that has killed at least 400 people -- most of them Lebanese civilians -- while guaranteeing Hezbollah can no longer use the region to launch rockets at northern Israeli cities.

But Ms. Hariri suggested that such a force would only take the place of Israel as the target of the Islamic militia's wrath. Hezbollah is credited by most Lebanese with driving Israel out of south Lebanon in 2000 and killing hundreds of Israeli soldiers over the course of an 18-year occupation.

During the interview, Ms. Hariri, 53, a conciliator who is respected by Christian, Druze and Shiite leaders, expressed support for Hezbollah, saying blame for the current conflict rests with Israel. As she spoke, the noise of Israeli warplanes circling above her home was audible.

Her statements carry significant weight because she is a leader of the country's Sunni Muslim community, which has largely remained on the sidelines as Israel and the predominantly Shiite Hezbollah have traded deadly blows. As the aunt of Saad Hariri, whose political party effectively controls parliament, her statement likely signals that the Lebanese government will reject the idea of an international force in the south of the country.

Ms. Hariri said she was upset by the Canadian government's staunchly pro-Israel position on the conflict. United Nations emergency relief chief Jan Egeland said yesterday after touring the annihilated southern suburbs of Beirut that Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldiers had been "disproportionate" and seemingly in violation of international humanitarian law. Prime Minister Stephen Harper, however, has called Israel's response "measured."

"I have a message for Canada -- there's no excuse for killing women and children, for killing civilians," she said. "Does a country stronger than you have a right to attack you? If the United States attacked Canada, would that be acceptable?"

The pretext for Hezbollah's continued attacks on the Jewish state is Israel's presence in the Shebaa Farms, which the militia says is Lebanese land but the United Nations recognizes as part of Syria.

"There will be no peace if somebody else comes in with another force," she said in an interview at her family home in the hills above the southern port city of Sidon. "The [Hezbollah] resistance will not stop, no matter who the occupier is."

The last time international forces were deployed in Lebanon, after Israel's 1982 invasion of the country, they were driven out after truck bombs killed 241 U.S. marines and 58 French paratroopers on Oct. 23, 1983.

The blasts are widely regarded as marking the birth of Hezbollah, although the group has always denied involvement in the attack.

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Possibly having an occupation force based in Israel ?
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
FreeAsia2000 said:
An occupation force has already been rejected by the lebanese sunni's needless to say the shia will be even more averse.

Lol, don't you mean peacekeeping force?

At the end of the day Hezbollah don't have the authority to actually refuse such an operation, even if their co-operation would be preferred. It's up to the government in Beirut - who of course could refuse it if they wished.

I think an international force is necessary. Israel will just kick this sort of thing off again if Hezbollah can fire off more missiles and kidnap its soldiers. The Lebanese would do it, but they're too weak at the moment. So a sort of "de-militarised zone" (this time not run by Israel) seems like the best solution.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I don't think that an occupation force in Israel is going to solve anything, as the rocket attacks are coming form the Lebanese side of the border. Besides, occupying a first world country would be a bit unprecedented.

The fog of war is thick in Southern Lebanon. If you believe the media reports, the Israelis have taken, left and retaken the village of Maroun el Ras four times. I find that hard to believe. So really we don't know what is going on. I assume that the fighting is very much like the Korean War, revolving around hilltops, making heavy use of artillery, tanks fairly useless, and extremely intense when the infantries come together. Of course, it could be a bit more like Iraq of Vietnam, with Hezbollah not standing to face the Israelis and allowing them to occupy what they wish then moving back in when/if they move on. It just seems to me that the Israelis are actually running into capable resistance form Hezbollah fighters that stand and fight. From what little bits I can gather from articles and stuff by reporters who probably don't know much about the military and don't have access to a whole lot of information, it seems that the Israelis tend to move into an area, get in a firefight, withdraw, hit it with artillery and airstikes and move back in. That would suggest that they are facing some heavy and capable resistance.
 

maglomanic

Junior Member
Finn McCool said:
That would suggest that they are facing some heavy and capable resistance.


I too am getting the same impression.
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" "It's a real mess and I am not allowed to talk about it," was all Green had to say about the battle for Bint Jbail, where much of the town's population of 30,000 is believed to have fled"

Whoever thinks Israelis occupying the land solves anything for them should consider their 20 years of occupation and it's results.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Hezbollah digs in deep
By Richard M Bennett

Hezbollah, Hizballah, Party of God, Islamic Jihad or Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, the radical Lebanese Shi'ite organization that goes under a wide range of names was formed in the Lebanon in 1982 as the natural offshoot of the Iranian Islamic Revolution three years earlier.

To many observers it is nothing more than an extension of Tehran's power westward to the shores of the Mediterranean, while others believe that Hezbollah also has a second agenda of its own ... the eventual total political control of the Lebanon.

Serious military force
Hezbollah is a serious military force with well trained, heavily armed and competently led combat units. Estimates vary on its



true strength, but the probable number of front line fighters available before the current conflict began was about 3,000.

To this must be added up to 20,000 veterans and well-armed militia. Its potential overall strength numbers over 50,000 if party workers, relatively untrained supporters and the potential assistance from the well-armed gunmen of the Syrian-controlled PFLP-GC (Popular Front of Liberation of Palestine - General Command) and the militia of the SNSP (Syrian National Socialist Party), operating in the Marjeyoun area of Lebanon, are taken into account.

However, the most significant and to the Israelis the most worrying element is the presence of an unknown number of Iranian Islamic Republican Guards. Thought to number anything between 500 and 2,000, these tough soldiers are responsible for the operation of most of Hezbollah's most sophisticated weapons.

They fired the C802 anti-ship missile which damaged an Israeli warship off the Lebanese coast; Iranian military technicians are involved in providing communications and SIGINT support, as well as probably controlling the longer-range Zelzal ballistic missiles, modern anti-tank and air defense missile systems.

It is perhaps also highly significant that this Hezbollah missile onslaught on Israel is taking place only a few short weeks since Syria and Iran signed a military cooperation pact against the United States, and by inference, Israel.

Hezbollah's arsenal
Hezbollah's impressive arsenal has taken some professional observers and large parts of the news media by surprise, though as yet many of its potentially most lethal weapons have not been used and probably won't be until a full-scale Israeli invasion has been launched.

They are believed to have significant quantities of Russian AT-5 Spandrel, AT-3 Sagger, a few AT-10 and a number of US TOW anti-tank guided missiles. Huge numbers of Russian RPG-7 and the Iranian-built version, the Saghegh, with a lethal 80mm tandem HEAT warhead, 82mm B-I0 and 107mm B-11 recoilless anti-tank guns, supplement 60mm, 82mm and 120mm mortars, vast numbers of anti-tank and anti-personnel mines of Chinese, Russian, Italian and Iranian origin.

Plentiful quantities of explosives and a proven ability to produce highly effective improvised explosive devices (IEDs - booby-traps and road side bombs) round out the inventory. It also has SA-7 and perhaps some SA-14-man portable surface-to-air missiles and twin 23mm ZSU anti-aircraft guns in southern Lebanon and the Bekaa Valley.

To this can be added a few tanks, either captured from the Lebanese Army or purchased from the old Palestinian Liberation Army; numerous M113 and BTR armored personnel carriers and some towed artillery.

Hezbollah has established a large number of cleverly placed and well-defended fire positions and bunkers along the border with Israel and every road north is mined, sowed with IEDs and covered by numerous possible ambushes. The upper Bekaa Valley will only be taken at considerable risk to the Israeli ground forces and only the use of overwhelming military force will provide any certainly of success.

Hezbollah's dangerous game Hezbollah has quite callously placed a large number of the missile launchers within built-up areas with little or no consideration for the civilian casualties that would be caused by any Israeli retaliatory raids.

Despite the known accuracy of the Israel Defense Force's (IDF's) targeting intelligence and the precision-guided munitions, there will always be mistakes in identification, and it is the nature of war that occasionally munitions will go astray.

Hezbollah is undoubtedly playing a dangerous game in the hopes of a single incident with appalling civilian casualties turning world opinion solidly against Israel.

Missile threat
Once again, therefore, attention falls mainly on its missiles and artillery rockets. Hezbollah could field some 12,000-13,000 107mm, range 11 kilometers, 122mm Katyusha-style man-portable bombardment rockets with a range of 20km and an increasing number of the Fadjr variants capable of striking up to 70km into Israel, before the current conflict began.

The ranges of some of these systems have been increased, though the accuracy is still severely limited. The IDF claimed recently that Hezbollah fired a Syrian-supplied 220mm artillery rocket with a 90 kilogram warhead into Haifa which killed eight civilians.

Of far greater concern to Israel is the rumored presence of some 250 Zelzal-2 missiles in the upper Bekaa Valley. These are road-mobile, solid-propellant systems intended to be a cheap replacement for the aging SCUD missile. The Zelzal uses a rudimentary inertial guidance system and is believed to be able to deliver a warhead of some 600kg (about 1,300 pounds) over ranges varying from 150km to 400km (about 95 miles to 250 miles) , thus putting most of Israel, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, under grave threat.

Israel's nightmare scenario is one in which these long range missiles are fitted with a chemical or biological warfare payload, or even a "dirty" (ie radioactive) warhead. Both of Hezbollah's main sponsors and paymasters, Syria and Iran, are known to have such warheads available and indeed some intelligence reports have suggested that a small number of Syrian chemical weapons are well hidden in bunkers in the upper Bekaa Valley.

Hezbollah is well supported
Hezbollah still has a level of fanatical support among many ordinary Lebanese and particularly in South Beirut, southern Lebanon and the Bekaa Valley. It is highly respected as the only Islamic force that has achieved any serious military success against Israel and is indeed the only Arab force willing, or perhaps capable, of joining the Palestinian Hamas campaign against Israel launched from Gaza.

It continues to operate openly throughout the border regions with the willing assistance of the local Lebanese population and the connivance of the government in Beirut. Internationally, Hezbollah has established cells in Europe, Africa, South America, North America and elsewhere.

Hezbollah has its political leadership well hidden in the tightly packed suburbs of south Beirut, while its main military command is split between bunkers near Ba'albek and safe havens in Syria.

Its training bases are mostly in the Bekaa (Biqa)Valley and include; Ain Bourday Base (South of Ba'albek) - guerrilla warfare training. Nabi Sheet Base - guerrilla warfare training. Ba'aIbek Homs Road Base - guerrilla warfare training. Wadi Firsan Base (in the Hermel, Bekaa Valley) - terrorist training, long-range patrols, observation techniques, anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapon techniques. Wadi al-Yammouneh Base (edge of the Jbeil mountains) - terrorist training. Nabeh El Assi Base (Hermel, Bekaa Valley) - terrorist training.

Israel will undoubtedly find Hezbollah a tough and resilient enemy, it will ultimately prove very difficult to destroy militarily and virtually impossible to defeat politically.

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This article lists the capabilities of Hezbullah quite accurately in my opinion.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Well Lebanon is a democratic country and if both the Sunni and Shia
agree then that only leaves a minority within the christian camp who might
support an occupation force (peace-keeping force :) ).

There's a fantastic interview with the leader of Hezbollah where he discusses
the military and political situation. It's quite realistic because he goes
into what Hezbollah can and can't do.

Anyway you can read it at

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it's really worth reading.

Btw does anybody know if NATO troops wear blue hats or if that's
the UN only ?
 
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