Chinese Economics Thread

Brumby

Major
“If these fiscal and monetary policies continue, the yen’s value is at great risk,” the 75-year-old professor at Tokyo’s Waseda University said in an interview on May 11. “If you base your thinking on the efficient-markets hypothesis, you can’t predict a level for the currency. But, if the nation’s economic strength weakens, it is possible the yen could drop to 300, or 500, or 1,000 to the dollar.” Growth has stagnated for a decade despite fiscal and monetary stimulus efforts that left the government with a debt burden that is the highest in the world, at about 2.5 times the value of the nation’s economic output.

Efficient-market hypothesis is not about prediction but simply the assumption that when market knowledge and information is sufficiently transparent and efficient then risk and consequently pricing is fully reflected. As such the current pricing of the Yen in theory fully reflects the known state of the Japanese economy today.


How and why the 2.5 times debt burden presents a problem to the future state of the economy is not explained except the Yen will drop. This is an example of statements that say a bunch of stuff but has no meaningful content. At a minimum he should have provided an economic nexus.


Well ...., as early as 1985, the USD roughly 260 Yen ... when Japanese economy was the best of the best

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I don't see why it can't happen again as Japnese economy has been stagnant for more than 2 decades and in much worse condition than was in 1980s

I am not a fan of economics because one can use economic theory to advance any position but concurrently not able to prove conclusively anything. The story you brought up is a case in point. If I apply the economic rationale of debt burden I can make the same argument to conclude that China’s current and future economic state is worst off than that of Japan.

China’s double digit growth in the past 10 years had been on the back enormous level of capital inputs used but that in turn has meant that national corporate debt levels have risen from 147 per cent of GDP at the end of 2008 to over 250 per cent at the end of June, 2014 (Jamil Anderlini, ‘China Debt Tops 250% of National Incomes’, Financial Times, 21 July 2014). In context, the expansion of debt which has been used to finance capital inputs from US$9-10 trillion in 2008 to US$20-25 trillion in 2014 exceeds the size of the total American commercial banking system.

Such an unprecedented increase in debt-financed capital has also created systemic problems for the entire financial system in China. In 2011, an investigation by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences put the debt to asset ratio of Chinese firms at 105 per cent, the highest amongst the twenty major economies studied (Corporate Debt Reaches “Alarming” Levels’, China Daily, 18 May 2012). That China’s overall debt to GDP ratio was then 169 per cent and is now over 250 per cent some five years later means that corporate debt is now undoubtedly far higher than it was in 2011. The last I heard the debit level is approaching 300 percent. In contrast, Japan’s debt level peaked at 350 % that brought in the 30 year economic stagnation. Currently at 250 %, that would put Japan in a better state than that of China.

Given that so much of the fixed investment is wasteful which is reflected in the rapidly rising capital-output ratios, there is almost universal agreement that the official non-performing loan (NPL) ratio of 1 per cent which has not changed for a decade is not credible. Instead, most independent analyses conservatively place the NPL figure to be at least 5 per cent, meaning the NPLs on the balance sheets of state-owned banks whose liabilities are ultimately government liabilities could be around US$2 trillion (Dexter Roberts, ‘China Bad Debt Could Spark Global Growth Slump’, Business Week, 9 May 2014).

As the majority of the capital inputs were invariably directed to SOE’s the result is the creation of extremely inefficient and non competitive enterprises. As an example, the amount of capital input needed to produce one additional dollar of output (i.e., capital-output ratio) increased from 2:1 in the 1980s to about 4:1 in the 1990s, and was well over 5:1 in 2011 according to OECD figures ( OECD, Economic Outlook for Southeast, China and India 2014 ). The capital-output ratio estimate for 2012 was 5.5:1 meaning that a capital input of $5.50 achieves only $1.00 in additional output (John Mauldin, ‘China’s Minsky Moment?’, Forbes, 22 March 2014).
 

Brumby

Major
That's interesting. As someone who experienced what life was like in the 70's/80's and live and work in China recently, I would think I'm better qualify to speak for the mood of the populace than you.

I can present you with a bunch of recent Gallup charts on satisfaction surveys that effectively debunk your comments. I will not do so because the subject of the conversation was about macro economics and not feel good surveys, a distinction that hopefully you can understand.
 

vincent

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I can present you with a bunch of recent Gallup charts on satisfaction surveys that effectively debunk your comments. I will not do so because the subject of the conversation was about macro economics and not feel good surveys, a distinction that hopefully you can understand.

You do know the phrasing of the questions and the things say before the questions can have a huge influence on the answer, right?

A recent example:

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Cassino’s research into gender and politics has found that the mere thought of a female president could cost Clinton as much as 8% of the vote.
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in association with Farleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind poll, a group of New Jersey voters were split into two groups—one where interviewees were initially posed a question that prompted thoughts about gender, and another where they were not. Clinton was favored by a margin of 19% by participants who were not asked to consider gender, but only 11% by those who were asked about it.
 

Blitzo

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I can present you with a bunch of recent Gallup charts on satisfaction surveys that effectively debunk your comments. I will not do so because the subject of the conversation was about macro economics and not feel good surveys, a distinction that hopefully you can understand.

I think I know the Gallup surveys you're talking about, however to be fair to Vincent he's talking about longer term changes in satisfaction and development on the scale of decades, whereas the Gallup polls are measuring satisfaction on a per year within year basis.
I would be interested to see a survey measuring things like satisfaction with the nation's direction/progress over the last 30 years, to see if Vincent's personal anecdotes are reflected in the general population.

That said, you're right that this is pretty off topic.
 

Brumby

Major
You do know the phrasing of the questions and the things say before the questions can have a huge influence on the answer, right?
Totally irrelevant to the nature of the discussion i.e. macro economics as I already tried to point out but you seem oblivious to it. If you are still in University at least there is hope of further skills development. However if you are already in the workforce, I do hope that you get a good mentor.
 

Brumby

Major
I think I know the Gallup surveys you're talking about, however to be fair to Vincent he's talking about longer term changes in satisfaction and development on the scale of decades, whereas the Gallup polls are measuring satisfaction on a per year within year basis.
I would be interested to see a survey measuring things like satisfaction with the nation's direction/progress over the last 30 years, to see if Vincent's personal anecdotes are reflected in the general population.

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Only 9 comparative years. I am not a fan of surveys but since you raised it.
 

Blitzo

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Totally irrelevant to the nature of the discussion i.e. macro economics as I already tried to point out but you seem oblivious to it. If you are still in University at least there is hope of further skills development. However if you are already in the workforce, I do hope that you get a good mentor.

Well he's obviously choosing to continue to engage on the tangent of the feel-good survey part of the discussion...

It may be worth spinning this off into a separate thread (mods?), something called "Research methods". I remember we had a few discussions about how surveys are conducted a year or so back as well.

Regarding the Gallup polls themselves, I personally think the trends are overall probably reflective of the situation, especially if they are keeping consistent with the phrasing of the survey questions ever since they began doing the surveys.
 

Blitzo

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View attachment 28025
Only over 8 comparative years. I am not a fan of surveys but since you raised it.

Thank you, for demonstrating exactly why I said the Gallup polls you were referring to were not reflective of the original statement which Vincent was making.

I will repeat the part of my last post which is relevant:
"he's talking about longer term changes in satisfaction and development on the scale of decades, whereas the Gallup polls are measuring satisfaction on a per year within year basis."

In other words, that Gallup poll is measuring how the populace feels about the situation at time of the respondents answering, perhaps over the last year or last few months.
The Gallup poll is not measuring how the populace feels about the direction of the country and their satisfaction from 30 years ago to now.
edit: phrasing it another way, the poll is not asking about the respondent's opinions of the change which has occurred from 30 years to now... and this change in satisfaction and so on, over the last few decades, is what Vincent was getting at, from my understanding
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
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Totally irrelevant to the nature of the discussion i.e. macro economics as I already tried to point out but you seem oblivious to it. If you are still in University at least there is hope of further skills development. However if you are already in the workforce, I do hope that you get a good mentor.

A free lesson in life: Being a condescending ass will not help your case. You are an exhibit A for the White Men's Burden
 

Brumby

Major
The Gallup poll is not measuring how the populace feels about the direction of the country and their satisfaction from 30 years ago to now.

I am not sure why we are spending inordinate effort on an off-topic. If you take a 50 year satisfaction survey, I am sure you will find very favourable results because the base line is off the Cultural revolution/Great leap era where the amount of deaths and suffering was on the scale of WW2. The issue is not about whether China has made economic progress or whether the living state has improved or not. Vincent's attempt is simply off-topic when the discourse is about aging demographics and fiscal policies or lack of to a future problem.
 
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