Chinese Economics Thread

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
How is it relevant to the discussions?

I don't have much interest on China or spend much time on this subject. I comment to counter what IMO are propaganda like comments or far out assertions that in my view are misrepresentations on specific subjects.

If you must know, I have worked in China long before probably some of you on this forum were born or were still in diapers.

That's interesting. As someone who experienced what life was like in the 70's/80's and live and work in China recently, I would think I'm better qualify to speak for the mood of the populace than you. As for propaganda comments, for your information, just because some people support the Chinese government does not mean they are working for the government. Maybe, just maybe, they genuinely like the government? How do you know their views are wrong when you have little contact with people living there? White men's burden?

I can tell you from my experience, people in China don't live in fear. They are annoyed with the corruption and inequality, but they are also enjoying the fruit of their labour. Most of my ex-coworkers are doing quite well. People I know have multiple houses and take vacations all over the world. They are far richer than I am. The Chinese government has done a pretty good job with the economy in the past 30 years and I'm confident they will continue to do so in the future.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The graying of China is inevitable

No, it's not.

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china-population-pyramid-2014.gif


This is China's population pyramid in 2014. There are two peaks: one at the 40-49 age range, and another at the 20-29 age range. The former has a good 20 years of working years ahead of them, while the latter have just begun entering the work force.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
I can't find the best thread for this interesting post. So Moderators, please move it if you think there is a better place. Thank you.

SamuraiBlue, you may want to make some comments and challenge with your theory ... welcome

Helicopter Money Is Putting the Yen's Value at 'Great Risk': Noguchi
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Basically he is a mouth piece of big banks since at the moment BOJ's interest rate is minus so banks are forced to move the money they keep in BOJ and lend it out to actual people that may or may not pay up. He makes no mention of this point but states;

The problem with the extremely cheap money is that it gets channeled into unproductive areas, and allows “zombie companies” to continue to stay in business,

Is he mocking the banks who he is being paid from since the so called "Cheap Money" is channeled through banks since they are now forced to make honest investments instead of tucking it away in the safety of BOJ's vault since banks are going to lose money instead of gaining money no matter how small the amount is. So is he saying banks can't identify good client from bad because no decent bank is going to lend out bad loans with no chance of recovering the money they had invested.

Another fear mongering tripe is ;

if the nation’s economic strength weakens, it is possible the yen could drop to 300, or 500, or 1,000 to the dollar.

Really the world's biggest creditor's national currency is going to drop to the point and beyond after Nixon shock?
International firms that originating from Japan like Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi Heavy, Toray, etc. returns billions in earning back to Japan and yet he think Japan's currency is going into free dive?

Waste of time and band width to discuss any further and is off topic anyways.
 

solarz

Brigadier
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Authorities in south-west
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have vowed to come to the aid of an isolated mountain village after photographs emerged showing the petrifying journey its children are forced to make to get to school.

To attend class, backpack-carrying pupils from Atuler village in Sichuan province must take on an 800-metre rock face, scrambling down rickety ladders and clawing their way over bare rocks as they go.

Images of their
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went viral on the Chinese internet this week after they were published in a Beijing newspaper.

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There are 17 vine ladders on the 800-metre-high way home, but the most dangerous part is a path on the cliff without a vine ladder. Photograph: Feature China/Barcroft Images
The photographs were taken by Chen Jie, an award-winning Beijing News photographer whose pictures of
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were recognised by the World Press Photo awards earlier this year.

Chen used his WeChat account to describe the moment he first witnessed the village’s 15 school children, aged between six and 15, scaling the cliff. “There is no doubt I was shocked by the scene I saw in front of me,”
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, adding that he hoped his photographs could help change the village’s “painful reality”.

Chen, who spent three days visiting the impoverished community, said the perilous trek, which he undertook three times, was not for the faint of heart. “It is very dangerous. You have to be 100% careful,” he told the Guardian. “If you have any kind of accident, you will fall straight into the abyss.”

So steep was the climb that Zhang Li, a reporter from China’s state broadcaster CCTV who was also dispatched to the mountain, burst into tears as she attempted to reach Atuler village. “Do we have to go this way?” the journalist said as
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“I don’t want to go.”

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Children of Atuler village climb the vine ladder on a cliff on their way home in Zhaojue county. Photograph: Feature China/Barcroft Images
Api Jiti, the head of the 72-family farming community which produces peppers and walnuts, told Beijing News there had been insufficient room to build a school for local children on the mountaintop.

But the perils were evident. The villager chief
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that “seven or eight” villagers had plunged to their deaths after losing their grip during the climb while many more had been injured. He had once nearly fallen from the mountain himself.

The trek to school is now considered so gruelling that the children have been forced to board, only returning to their mountaintop homes to see their families twice a month.

Villager Chen Jigu told reporters the wooden ladders used to move up and down the mountain were, like the village, hundreds of years old. “We replace a ladder with a new one when we find one of them is rotten,” he said.

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The oral history of Atuler village said the ancestors picked this isolated and dangerous location to avoid wars. Photograph: Feature China / Barcroft Images
More than 680 million Chinese citizens have lifted themselves from poverty since the country’s economic opening began in the 1980s but
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.

In Atuler village, residents reportedly live on less than $1 (70p) a day.

President Xi Jinping has vowed to completely eradicate poverty by 2020 by offering financial support to about 70 million mostly rural people who survive on less than 2,300 yuan (£240) per year. “Although China has made remarkable achievements seen across the world, China remains the world’s biggest developing country,” Xi told a poverty-reduction conference last October.

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A boy on a cliff on his way home in Zhaojue county. There was a cable transportation service taking the children to the valley, but the villagers could not afford the electricity bills and the cable later got dismantled. Photograph: Feature China / Barcroft Images

Not to belittle the danger in any way, but that village has probably survived this way for hundreds of years. Humans are capable of remarkable feats given sufficient incentive.

On a different note, I think this article underlines the importance of the Chinese government's population redistribution initiative. There are just so many of these remote, mountainous villages that would never be able to rise above subsistence economy as long as they live in such locations.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
That's interesting. As someone who experienced what life was like in the 70's/80's and live and work in China recently, I would think I'm better qualify to speak for the mood of the populace than you. As for propaganda comments, for your information, just because some people support the Chinese government does not mean they are working for the government. Maybe, just maybe, they genuinely like the government? How do you know their views are wrong when you have little contact with people living there? White men's burden?

I can tell you from my experience, people in China don't live in fear. They are annoyed with the corruption and inequality, but they are also enjoying the fruit of their labour. Most of my ex-coworkers are doing quite well. People I know have multiple houses and take vacations all over the world. They are far richer than I am. The Chinese government has done a pretty good job with the economy in the past 30 years and I'm confident they will continue to do so in the future.
Totally agreed. The most annoyance I have faced in the west these years is not someone with a different opinion but their stance of "you must be brainwashed or a communist agent if you don't condemn China with me." that is a blunt insult to my IQ and lack of EQ on the other party.

I once met a guy in a bar who worked in the foreign ministry in my host country, the chat started friendly and politely. Then he asked about Tibet, I returned "what about it to talk?" then we both looked away. I think after the initial curiosity from both sides has faded and a common understanding did not emerge, we just end up in "one only talk to, listen to, understand and gather with the like-minded".
 

solarz

Brigadier
Totally agreed. The most annoyance I have faced in the west these years is not someone with a different opinion but their stance of "you must be brainwashed or a communist agent if you don't condemn China with me." that is a blunt insult to my IQ and lack of EQ on the other party.

I once met a guy in a bar who worked in the foreign ministry in my host country, the chat started friendly and politely. Then he asked about Tibet, I returned "what about it to talk?" then we both looked away. I think after the initial curiosity from both sides has faded and a common understanding did not emerge, we just end up in "one only talk to, listen to, understand and gather with the like-minded".

Going a bit off topic here, but I wonder if the recent polarization in politics is related to the proliferation of social media.

In a face-to-face conversations, like in your example, people deal with different political opinions all the time, and it serves as a reminder that not everyone think the same way.

However, on social media, you can easily restrict the conversation to a like-minded group of people, and when you discuss most of your political opinions with people who generally agree with you, you are constantly being reinforced on the impression that everyone thinks the same as you do. A natural consequence of that belief is that those who have a different opinion must somehow be inferior: stupid, uneducated, ignorant, etc.

As an undergrad, I had a psychology professor who once mentioned that his next project was to investigate if online forums for nazi sympathizers created extremism (this was back in the early 2000's). I don't know what the results of his project were, or if he even got to do it, but I think it's a pretty relevant hypothesis in today's world of social media opinions.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Going a bit off topic here, but I wonder if the recent polarization in politics is related to the proliferation of social media.

Totally related.

In a face-to-face conversations, like in your example, people deal with different political opinions all the time, and it serves as a reminder that not everyone think the same way.

However, on social media, you can easily restrict the conversation to a like-minded group of people, and when you discuss most of your political opinions with people who generally agree with you, you are constantly being reinforced on the impression that everyone thinks the same as you do. A natural consequence of that belief is that those who have a different opinion must somehow be inferior: stupid, uneducated, ignorant, etc.

As an undergrad, I had a psychology professor who once mentioned that his next project was to investigate if online forums for nazi sympathizers created extremism (this was back in the early 2000's). I don't know what the results of his project were, or if he even got to do it, but I think it's a pretty relevant hypothesis in today's world of social media opinions.

Not necessarily, social media does make like-minded people to get together and stick together more easily. But not a must, in the pre social media era, people make friend with like minded and avoid the opposite people, or friends break up after realizing the irreconcilable difference. Social media only amplifiers this tendency not making it.

Quite on the contrary, social media "forces" opposite people to meet each other in SDF.:D While in the real world you would not want to hear from the person again ever.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Totally agreed. The most annoyance I have faced in the west these years is not someone with a different opinion but their stance of "you must be brainwashed or a communist agent if you don't condemn China with me." that is a blunt insult to my IQ and lack of EQ on the other party.

I once met a guy in a bar who worked in the foreign ministry in my host country, the chat started friendly and politely. Then he asked about Tibet, I returned "what about it to talk?" then we both looked away. I think after the initial curiosity from both sides has faded and a common understanding did not emerge, we just end up in "one only talk to, listen to, understand and gather with the like-minded".

I remember talking to a friend a few years back, and he asked me why my parents chose to immigrate from China to NZ in the mid 1990s, and I said it was for the environment.
My friend immediately nodded and said "ah, yes the political environment".
I didn't want to start a fight so I just shook my head and said "no, I mean trees and stuff".

There's a difference between being an immigrant vs a defector or a political refugee, but the automatic assumptions made by some parts of society are a little bit amusing though sometimes insulting.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Back on topic, to some economics which hopefully is not trying to project two decades into the future.

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Here comes the modern Chinese consumer
By Daniel Zipser, Yougang Chen, and Fang Gong

Cooling economic growth, a depreciating currency, and a gyrating stock market are making political and business leaders concerned that China’s economic dream may be ending. Yet Chinese consumers remain upbeat. In fact, consumer confidence has been surprisingly resilient over the past few years as salaries have continued to rise and unemployment has stayed low.

However, our latest survey of Chinese consumers reveals significant change lurks beneath the surface. Reflecting 10,000 in-person interviews with people aged 18 to 56 across 44 cities, our 2016 China consumer report, The Modernization of the Chinese Consumer, found that the days of broad-based market growth are coming to an end. Consumers are becoming more selective about where they spend their money, shifting from products to services and from mass to premium segments. They are seeking a more balanced life where health, family, and experiences take priority (Exhibit 1). The popularity of international travel is astounding among Chinese consumers, as is their adoption of trends such as mobile payments. And despite many similarities, consumer behavior can vary significantly among the country’s 22 city clusters.

In short, our latest research suggests we are witnessing the modernization of the Chinese consumer, and that will only make the market more challenging for consumer-goods companies. But for those able to get it right, the rewards may be substantial. In this article, we’ll examine the evolving behavior of Chinese consumers through three lenses: how willing they are to spend, what they are buying, and where they are buying.

How willing they are to spend

When asked about their expectations regarding future income, 55 percent of consumers we interviewed were confident their income would increase significantly over the next five years—just two percentage points lower than in 2012. (By comparison, just 32 percent of consumers in the United States and 30 percent in the United Kingdom agreed with the same statement in 2011.)

That’s not to say that Chinese consumers are unaware of the deteriorating condition of the economy. A growing number are seeking to save and invest, and we found differences in consumer confidence widening at a regional level (Exhibit 2). While confidence about income growth during the next five years rose to 70 percent in the Xiamen–Fuzhou city cluster, for example, it decreased to as little as 35 percent in Liao Central.

What they are buying
We found that consumers are generally becoming more selective about their spending. They are allocating more of their income to lifestyle services and experiences—over half plan to spend more on leisure and entertainment (the 50 percent surge in box-office receipts in the past year is just one indicator of that trend). At the same time, spending on food and beverages for home consumption is stagnating or even declining.

Chinese consumers are also increasingly trading up from mass products to premium products: we found that 50 percent now seek the best and most expensive offering, a significant increase over previous years (Exhibit 3). It’s no surprise that the growth of premium segments is outpacing that of the mass and value segments, and foreign brands still hold a leadership position in that premium market. What’s more, a rising proportion of Chinese consumers focus on a few brands, and some are becoming loyal to single brands. The number of consumers willing to switch to a brand outside their “short list” dropped sharply. In apparel, for instance, the number of consumers willing to consider a brand they hadn’t before dropped from about 40 percent in 2012 to just below 30 percent in 2015.

Becoming part of the closed set of the few brands that consumers consider, or even the one brand that consumers prefer, is increasingly challenging. Fewer consumers are open to new brands, and promotions are becoming less effective at encouraging consumers to consider them.

With a few notable exceptions, such as Huawei’s growing share of the premium-smartphone market, Chinese brands have not gained much traction in many premium segments, such as skincare, cars, sports, and fashion. That contrasts starkly with the mass segment of the market, where local brands are winning market share from foreign incumbents by offering a much stronger product proposition.

Where they are buying
Although China is the world’s largest e-commerce market—generating revenue of about 4 trillion renminbi ($615 billion) last year, around the same as Europe and the United States combined—and consumers increasingly purchase online, physical stores remain important. Consumers engage with brands both online and offline (Exhibit 4), and satisfaction with physical stores remains higher than with online ones. But the gap is narrowing, especially as satisfaction with hypermarkets declines.

One trend that is helping maintain interest in physical stores is “retailtainment.” Two-thirds of Chinese consumers say that shopping is the best way to spend time with family, an increase of 21 percent compared with three years ago. Malls—which combine shopping, dining, and entertainment experiences the entire family can enjoy—have benefited most from this trend, at the expense of big-box retail outlets such as department stores and hypermarkets.

Consumers also reinforce family ties through travel: 74 percent of consumers say it helps them to better connect with family, and 45 percent of international trips were taken with family in 2015, compared with 39 percent in 2012. More than 70 million Chinese consumers traveled overseas in 2015, making 1.5 trips on average, and shopping is integral to this experience. Some 80 percent of consumers have made overseas purchases, and nearly 30 percent actually base their choice of a travel destination on shopping opportunities. Among international travelers, around half of their watch and handbag purchases are made overseas, while apparel and cosmetics are the most frequently purchased categories.

Overall, Chinese consumers are adopting new products, services, and retail experiences at rates unseen in developed markets. To take one example, mobile-payment penetration in China went from zero in 2011 to 25 percent of the population in 2015. At the same time, there are still differences in how Chinese consumers in various regions spend. While new highways, high-speed-rail links, and mobile Internet access have strengthened connectivity between neighboring clusters over the past few years, we found that differences across the country’s 22 geographic clusters
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have grown even more pronounced. For instance, 35 percent of consumers in the Shanghai city cluster have purchased apparel online in the past six months, compared with just 4 percent of consumers in the Chengdu city cluster.

The Chinese consumer is evolving. Gone are the days of indiscriminate spending on products. The focus is shifting to prioritizing premium products and living a more balanced, healthy, and family-centric life. Understanding and responding to these changes in spending habits will be decisive in determining the companies that win or lose, whether international or domestic competitors. And while scale, speed, and simplicity proved advantageous in the past 15 to 20 years, the changing shape of Chinese consumption seems sure to topple some giants of the past and elevate new champions. Which will your company be?

This article is an edited excerpt from McKinsey’s 2016 China consumer report,
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(PDF–910KB).
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Basically he is a mouth piece of big banks since at the moment BOJ's interest rate is minus so banks are forced to move the money they keep in BOJ and lend it out to actual people that may or may not pay up. He makes no mention of this point but states;

Is he mocking the banks who he is being paid from since the so called "Cheap Money" is channeled through banks since they are now forced to make honest investments instead of tucking it away in the safety of BOJ's vault since banks are going to lose money instead of gaining money no matter how small the amount is. So is he saying banks can't identify good client from bad because no decent bank is going to lend out bad loans with no chance of recovering the money they had invested.

Another fear mongering tripe is ;

Really the world's biggest creditor's national currency is going to drop to the point and beyond after Nixon shock?
International firms that originating from Japan like Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi Heavy, Toray, etc. returns billions in earning back to Japan and yet he think Japan's currency is going into free dive?

Waste of time and band width to discuss any further and is off topic anyways.

Well ...., as early as 1985, the USD roughly 260 Yen ... when Japanese economy was the best of the best
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I don't see why it can't happen again as Japnese economy has been stagnant for more than 2 decades and in much worse condition than was in 1980s

Yukio Noguchi is very respected person, he is ex Ministry of Finance, just because he doesn't agree with Abenomics, doesn't make him "just waste of time"

As I said before I couldn't find the place for this topic, I see the closest one is in this thread .... moderator, please move it to a better thread if any
 
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