QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well, remember that DJI in China is the global cost AND volume AND technology leader in the field of small commercial drones. Nobody else is anywhere close to them, and these are all you need for the recon task.

So in a contest between a ZH-05 squad versus XM-25 squad - the ZH-05 squad is likely to have the Drone recon advantage.

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And cost does matter at the end of the day.

And the heavier weight of the XM-25 doesn't actually help with recoil. The rifle just serves to transmit the force of the grenade launch recoil to the shooter, so what matter is the total force transmitted AND the area of the rifle that is pressed up against the shooters shoulder. So the larger grenade recoil matters for sustained fire.

Plus marginal speed improvements matter in getting the first shot. Half a second could be the difference between wining and losing against a peer opponent.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Well, remember that DJI in China is the global cost AND volume AND technology leader in the field of small commercial drones. Nobody else is anywhere close to them, and these are all you need for the recon task.

So in a contest between a ZH-05 squad versus XM-25 squad - the ZH-05 squad is likely to have the Drone recon advantage.
The US has already deployed drones at the Infantry squad level. In other words The Drones are Already their I have yet to see similar employments to the PLA.

And cost does matter at the end of the day.
Sure but not as bad as you seem to want to make it.
And the heavier weight of the XM-25 doesn't actually help with recoil.
The rifle just serves to transmit the force of the grenade launch recoil to the shooter, so what matter is the total force transmitted AND the area of the rifle that is pressed up against the shooters shoulder. So the larger grenade recoil matters for sustained fire.
Mass Dampens impulse That's basic Physics A heavier object can absorb more impulse case in point the Remington ACR in 5.56mm has less felt recoil then the Ar15 in 5.56mm why because the ACR is heavier.
It takes more energy to push a larger object. Take a semi Tractor with out a trailer and let it loose It will fly down a straight away. Add in a Full Cargo load and now it's much slower.

Plus marginal speed improvements matter in getting the first shot. Half a second could be the difference between wining and losing against a peer opponent.
that's a over simplification and their is a lot more involved than that. In theory the ZH05 will have a edge her or there but not in all.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Employing recon drones at a squad level is pretty much as simple as buying one from the shop and spending a few days to train how to use it. For small commercial recon drones - it's not rocket science and remember that at the current time - commercial drones become obsolete with next year's model.

So whilst it makes sense for the US (with it's endless wars) to deploy drones now - is there any point in China deploying them widely given that China is at peace?

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Cost matters. As President Eisenhower once put it:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone."

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Mass does dampen impulse yes, but this is NOT relevant.

An XM-25 or ZH-05 will be fired with the rifle butt already in contact with the shooter's shoulder, and therefore serves mainly to transmit the total force generated by a grenade launch. The time over which such this impulse is transmitted remains the essentially the same - so we're talking about the larger XM-25 grenade generating a larger recoil for its shooter.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
If a Zh05 makes first blood on a unit the rest of the unit will react and as Wolf said their is no guarantee of them all being in the same place. Xm25 and ZH05 are both information age weapons one of the first things that is going to happen after contact is both are going to try and locate the other force. For the US that would likely mean deployment of a small drone or even a attack drone like the Aerovironment Switch blade.
neither the Zh05, LG3, XM25, K11, M320,M203 or any other grenade launcher in use with the possible exception of the BS-1 Tishina are quiet on launch but none are quiet on effect. The Aim of these weapons is to lay down as much death on a enemy as possible in as short and a violent and bloody a encounter in hopes of a one sided Slaughter. a Single Shot from a Zh05 is poking a hornets nest against a Pier Army. Against a lesser foe it might be more effective but again the aim would be a Ambush.
No they would just make it less effective.

Well actually I think you are either confusing yourself, or mix-n-matching scenarios here a little.

In a near-peer engagement, UAVs and micro UAVs are not going to be launched after contact, but rather sent out ahead of the friendly ground forces.

In the information age, near-peer ground combat is going to increasingly resemble air and naval combat, where first look and first shoot advantages becomes near overwhelming.

When fighting against a near-peer, a single ZH05 trooper is not going to be all by his lonesome looking to take a pot shot. He is going to be fighting with the rest of his squad. That's going to immediately put massive pressure on the enemy squad, and both sides are in a full squad-on-squad brawl instead of taking pot shots at each other.

As you said, combat between near-peers is about laying down as much firepower and death as quickly as possible on the enemy.

That means all hands on deck, and a squad could ill afford to have one man not fighting and fiddling with an UAV instead.

The job of the UAV operator is in finding the enemy before he knows there are hostiles nearby, and using that information to set up an effective ambush where all or most of the enemy squad is taken out during the first moments of contact being initiated.

If the squads blunder into each other, its about laying down firepower and killing the hostiles faster than they can kill you.

UAVs just won't come into play until the outcome of the clash has already been effectively decided.

Current gen squad based UAVs and micro UAVs are mostly geared towards fighting hopelessly outmatched foes, where its your entire squad against a handful of dug in insurgents, rather than a rival squad of well-trained and armed soldiers who are executing squad based combat manoeuvres.

For a squad, in my view, its better to have 2 x ZH05s and another dedicated grenadier with a PLZ87 or PLZ06 automatic or semi automatic grenade launcher rather than 1 XM25s (1 MX25 probably costs more than 2 ZH05 and both a PLZ87 and PLZ06).

Is there a point to this one? I mean a M1A2 Abrams Main battle Tank cost more than what all of it's crew makes in a Year. Army Privates don't buy their weapons out of pocket in the US Army and have not since the American Revolution.

Somebody still has to foot the bill at the end of the day.

The more you spend over the odds on weapons, the less money you have left in the budget for other things that could be just as, it not more useful to your squad.

At some point, spending an exact 95% of the budget for an exact 5% of capacity just isn't as good as living with a marginally bit less capacity than the theoretically most possible, and instead get twice the kill power for your squads.

I would bet that existing frag armor would probably be effective as is against either the current XM25 or Zh05 rounds but that would only stop what is hitting the armor. Against more powerful types down the line adding a layer of non newtonian fluid body armor might be a option.

Frag armour is only good against frag, it does nothing to protect the wearer from the pressure wave impact, which is going to be the real killer for modern, armoured troops.

Still need to bee able to move in battle the biggest hindered in the infantry right now it the limitations of movement All this talk of the advantages of shoot and scoot for ta Zh05 would be tossed out the window if the guy holding it can't bend his knees or climb a obstacle.

Well, think about it, most flexibility is in bending forwards. Our spines and bone structure massively limits how much most of us could bend backwards, and its just not a very common or useful range of motions for soldiers.

The shield would only extend slightly below the buttocks to maybe mid-thigh.

Unless you plan on trying to do squats or sit on your hunches, that shield shouldn't limit your movement much, if at all.

The bigger issue will probably be visibility limitations with having a plate effectively blocking out all view to the rear.

A compromise might be a fold out or spring out design, where the head and leg guard sections are normally folded (doubling the protective qualities of the shield against traditional ballistic threats, and it could replace the tractional back plate to save on overall weight) to be not much bigger than a traditional ceramic plate.

When the soldier fears a smart grenade is incoming, he pulls deployment toggles to extend the shield fully. Once the threat is gone, it could pull a second set of toggles to fold back the shield so it doesn't restrict vision.

Again I think a Liquid layer for shock absorption. It's not just the impacts it's the blast wave. a material that could absorb that would have to be integrated into future armor.

That fluid layer will need to cover pretty much ever inch of the soldier's head, neck and torso at least, and that will get heavy.

of course the issue is that if the back is covered in a armored shell where does your guy have his gear?

Most soldiers ditch their packs as soon as they engage the enemy anyways. Little different here. The packs will normally be slung over the shield, and ditched as soon as possible to allow the soldier to fight better.

I think Soft Exosuits will be the more practical take for general use. Although like Revision and the others the key problems of power and what to do if the suit looses power as well as Comfort I mean metal struts jutting out allover cannot be comfortable. I know Some People Love the Idea of Personal Mecha suits and big exosuits but they just seem to get in the way.I imagine more batman than Ironman.

I think the most practical first gen exosuit design will probably look a lot like the Jackets from Edge of Tomorrow (but with more and better torso plating), which is a half way point between Batman and Iron Man.

Technologically speaking, that size is probably most feasible compromise to get the right balance between size, endurance, durability, manoeuvrability and cost (miniaturisation tech is expensive).

If the suit runs out of power or is damaged, the operator could just step out rather than having to almost machine himself out of it, as with a Batman like close fitting integrated exo-frame.

Iron man is just bad fantasy. There is no way he could fit half the stuff he has in that suit (which can fold into a brief case!!!) without having to make the skin as thin as a beer can before even considering how ridiculously small the power plant and propulsion systems need to be. Unless he got Antman tech and actually shrinks himself to the size of a raisin when he is in the suit, its technologically impossible to make that suit work without an entirely new school of science. But I digress...
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
If were going to keep talking price tag, the quoted price per unit of between $25,000 to $30,000 is taken out of context here. That price was for the initial prototypes order which were built as one off units. An actual force wide issue would be manufactured in bulk on a line reducing the price per unit by maybe half.

@wolf you should check my thread on the TALOS and other non Chinese exoskeleton.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
@wolf you should check my thread on the TALOS and other non Chinese exoskeleton.

I have been following them ;)

However, I think they are making the now classic American mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.

At best they will end up with something like the Seawolf/Zumwalt - a vastly overpriced engineering marvel that is too expensive to be widely adopted, or a Comanche that gets cancelled even before being operationally deployed.

The technologies involved (especially power source) are just not mature enough to make what they are aiming for easily feasible at reasonable cost and timeframes.

So they are either going to have to take serious performance hits and/or both the developmental timeframe and budget are going to skyrocket.

Me suggesting the Jacket concept as most likely to succeed is based mostly on current and near future power source size and output ratios.

To be able to carry a power pack large enough to be operationally useful would require a certain bulk that the TALOS simply lack.

TALOS is an amazing concept, but I feel its asking too much as a first generation combat exosuit.

It may be feasible as a 2nd or 3rd gen system, but its just too ambitious as a first attempt in the field of combat exosuits.

They could probably make it work, but it will cost way too much to be picked up by the military in any meaningful numbers (Zumwalt), and may not even make it past the tech demonstrator stage if the power source revolution they are banking on doesn't quite happen, and the suit doesn't have the power capacity to go more than a few hours before needing a recharge (Comanche).
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@plawolf

In a peer vs peer squad engagement, I think it would still be worth dedicating an individual to control a UAV. After all, there's no reason a UAV with a hand grenade can't become a precision guided weapon and offer yet another attack vector.

@TerraN_EmpirE

The FY-17 request is for an LRIP of 107 XM-25 @ $41,257 each.

Therefore with mass production in future contract awards, we could expect the price to drop to the $25K-30K range - which is NOT the cost of the initial prototypes as you stated. Therefore the original point still stands in that the XM-25 is excessively expensive given how much the K-11 or ZH-05 cost.

Given the current downsizing of the US Army, if the XM-25 were cheaper, would the US Army have kept on more soldiers with those savings?
 

Inst

Captain
One thing we have to highlight is that 2 ZH-05s add mass in a way that 1 XM-25 does not. 2 ZH-05 carrier means that both operators need to be incapacitated before the ZH-05 fireteam loses its grenade capability, while 1 XM-25 has two riflemen assaulting. If the XM-25 gets knocked out, are the riflemen going to be trained to strip the rifle out of the hand of the XM-25 operator? This is a huge advantage of cheaper ZH-05s vs the XM-25; potentially, you could put everyone in a squad with one.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think we should focus more on the technical aspects of these weapon systems instead of so much on their operational and tactical strategies since I do not believe we're experts in this area.
 
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