Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

solarz

Brigadier
Actually it's quite the opposite.

Not all superheroes can dodge bullets. In fact, most cannot. Wolverine can't dodge bullets, although he heals fast. And I don't think the Captain can dodge bullets at all. That's why he has the shield. Only a very select few, like Superman (DC), the Flash (DC) and the Quicksilver (Marvel), can actually dodge bullets.

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I don't know where you got the idea that there is actually a rule in Wuxia world about dodging bullets. Overwhelming majority of the Wuxia stories occurs well before guns. The likes of Yang Guo would never worry about such things like guns.

Despite that, many superheroes in Wuxia world do operate devices that act like guns, like mini crossbows and devices with powerful springs that shoot out needle-like projectiles. These devices would be just as lethal as guns in close range, which is the usual condition during any fight or duel. And I would say most of the top-tier Wuxia masters can dodge these projectiles with ease. In fact, many of them make a habit of catching these projectiles in mid air with their only index and middle fingers. It's an intimidation thing, most of the time.

from what you have written in the past couple days, I have a feeling that you are not that familiar with either Wuxia or comic books. It seems that you are pulling things out of thin air now...

There's a huge speed difference between crossbow bolts and bullets. Crossbow bolts have a speed of 200 to 350 feet per second. Bullets have a speed of 3500 to 5000 feet per second.

In almost all Wuxia stories where guns exist, guns trump even the strongest martial arts. In 鹿鼎记, 双儿killed 风际中, whose martial arts outclassed hers by magnitudes, with a gun. Even 洪安通, who is arguably the most powerful martial artist in the novel, felt threatened enough by a Russian guard pointing a gun at him, that he released 韦小宝.

In both Fists of Fury and the 霍元甲 TV-series, 陈真 single-handedly killed an entire dojo of Japanese martial artists, but was killed by policemen with rifles.

In 碧血剑, the protagonist is one of the most powerful martial artist in the world. When he first encountered a gun, even he was aghast at its power, and thought that no amount of martial arts would defend against such a weapon.

Here's a clip from Once Upon a Time in China:
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
There was a supposed leak of the Star Wars Episode 8 script. If it's real, it's going to be crazy because of what it reveals of Rey's origins. I'm not sure if Star Wars fans will love it or hate it. There is in part a parallel to Empire Strikes Back as some predicted. JJ Abrams isn't directing but you see his finger prints on it.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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There's a huge speed difference between crossbow bolts and bullets. Crossbow bolts have a speed of 200 to 350 feet per second. Bullets have a speed of 3500 to 5000 feet per second.

In almost all Wuxia stories where guns exist, guns trump even the strongest martial arts. In 鹿鼎记, 双儿killed 风际中, whose martial arts outclassed hers by magnitudes, with a gun. Even 洪安通, who is arguably the most powerful martial artist in the novel, felt threatened enough by a Russian guard pointing a gun at him, that he released 韦小宝.

In both Fists of Fury and the 霍元甲 TV-series, 陈真 single-handedly killed an entire dojo of Japanese martial artists, but was killed by policemen with rifles.

In 碧血剑, the protagonist is one of the most powerful martial artist in the world. When he first encountered a gun, even he was aghast at its power, and thought that no amount of martial arts would defend against such a weapon.

Here's a clip from Once Upon a Time in China:

But you also have to keep in mind that the "power level" of martial artists in Jinyong's Wuxia novels peaked during the Northern Song Dynasty. In 天龍八部, high tier characters could use Ki attacks to dent metal containers from several feet away. I wouldn't be surprised if they could dodge bullets as well.
 

vesicles

Colonel
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There's a huge speed difference between crossbow bolts and bullets. Crossbow bolts have a speed of 200 to 350 feet per second. Bullets have a speed of 3500 to 5000 feet per second.

In almost all Wuxia stories where guns exist, guns trump even the strongest martial arts. In 鹿鼎记, 双儿killed 风际中, whose martial arts outclassed hers by magnitudes, with a gun. Even 洪安通, who is arguably the most powerful martial artist in the novel, felt threatened enough by a Russian guard pointing a gun at him, that he released 韦小宝.

In both Fists of Fury and the 霍元甲 TV-series, 陈真 single-handedly killed an entire dojo of Japanese martial artists, but was killed by policemen with rifles.

In 碧血剑, the protagonist is one of the most powerful martial artist in the world. When he first encountered a gun, even he was aghast at its power, and thought that no amount of martial arts would defend against such a weapon.

Here's a clip from Once Upon a Time in China:

For every superhero that can dodge bullets, I can list at least a dozen more that cannot. A simple example would be your own example. In your first comic book page showing the Captain taking charge to take out the enemy weapon, it's clear that the Capt has to take charge because the other superheroes are afraid of the weapon. Hence, more superheroes who cannot dodge bullets than those who can. And like Siege correctly mentioned, superheroes abilities change depending on the writer and timeline, etc.

My original point is that dodging bullet is definitely not a universal trait of superheroes. In other words, dodging bullets is not a definition of superheroes. And I think my point is clearly correct.

About those Chinese movies and novels that you listed. As Siege correctly pointed out, most of the examples that you gave involve low level Wuxia. Especially those characters in the Duke of Mount Deer. The main star of the story does not even know anything about kungfu. Most of the masters in the story can only be considered as low level canon fodder in other novels involving Wuxia masters with almost God-like capabilities.

Then The Huang Feihong movie clip that you listed. That movie is NOT a Wuxia movie. It is a kungfu movie, where ordinary people train to achieve top-tier athletic abilities, humanly possible abilities. These Kungfu movies are simply action movies, definitely not Wuxia or superhero movies. Jet Li himself made a distinction clear when he declared to retire from kungfu movies. He thinks himself too old for the physical demand of a kungfu movie, as he believes that he's portraying an athlete and must display these abilities himself. He, however, keeps making Wuxia movies, where he simply flies around on wires. The special effects involved in making Wuxia movies makes his job a lot easier.

Jin Yong's novels came out in the 1970's and mostly downplay the Wuxia capabilities significantly to give them a human side. Then all the other novelists, like Gu Long, etc. all used similar style to humanize their Wuxia masters. This is kind of a new phenomenon. As most of the popular novels nowadays are all from the 70's and 80's and all follow Jin Yong's new style.

The true Wuxia mythology that I talk about are something close to old stories like Su Shan sword masters. People in those stories can obtain magical abilities to control their swords to do anything they can think of, including flying thousands of miles within a couple of minutes. When they fight, they themselves do not even move. They use their minds to control their swords, which then fight the swords of their opponents. They can even turn themselves into magical swords and destroy mountains... With long enough training, they can literally turn themselves into God-like figures and destroy cities and mountains with a single swipe of their swords. These old Wuxia stories were very popular 100-200 years ago and peaked during the WWII, with the famous novel series "蜀山劍俠傳" (1930-1948) as one of the best and last in such genre. And in these books, the heroes use their supernatural abilities to help people. As I mentioned before, these stories are much more than a simple origin story. That point should be obvious simply by looking at how long the novel lasted (1930-1948).

Unfortunately, most young generation born after the 80's and 90's don't even know about these novels. I was exposed to some of it because my dad is very familiar with the genre. He used to listen to storytellers talking about these stories when he was little (in the 40's and 50's when mainland still allowed such storytelling...). So I grew up listening to my dad telling me these stories. Then I got my hands on some of these novels when I was old enough to read. Its fascinating if you can accept the premise because some of these stories go on and become very crazy. I sometimes get the feeling that these novels talk about gods fighting, not human fighting, especially with all their magical devices and potions... I suggest you read some of them and get a feel of the Chinese superhero mythology. It's crazily imaginative, borderline lunatic...
 

vesicles

Colonel
Also keep in mind that the old Wuxia stories were published more in the style of comic books. They were published as newspaper columns on a daily or weekly basis. Some of them went on for decades, just like comic books. 蜀山劍俠傳 Is a good example, going from 1930 to 1948.

Because of the popularity of these Wuxia stories, many newspapers used these Wuxia columns to attract audience. Thus, Wuxia columns became main stakes and main draw between 1910's and late 1940's before the CCP time.

Before the modern newspapers, these stories were spread by the storytellers, in the famous form of traditional entertainment, "Ping Shu".
 

kyanges

Junior Member
Regarding dodging bullets, I think you both might have been talking past each other. Cap and Batman aren't dodging the bullets themselves, so much as moving faster than the shooter can compensate. Moving faster than the shooter is one thing, moving faster than the speed of sound is another.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Regarding dodging bullets, I think you both might have been talking past each other. Cap and Batman aren't dodging the bullets themselves, so much as moving faster than the shooter can compensate. Moving faster than the shooter is one thing, moving faster than the speed of sound is another.
Cap Is genetically engineered he can move faster then a normal human he's basically Khan from star trek only nicer.
Batman is human, Even if he was wearing a Soft robot bat suit (Exosuit) he is limited in speed and reaction times but he does have a tool box. Batman uses deception part of that is his cape It's not just a cloak it makes him look bigger and on occasion allows him to glide. He also has distraction devices that are used to confuse his enemies and body armor to take shots when needed.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
Cap Is genetically engineered he can move faster then a normal human he's basically Khan from star trek only nicer.
Batman is human, Even if he was wearing a Soft robot bat suit (Exosuit) he is limited in speed and reaction times but he does have a tool box. Batman uses deception part of that is his cape It's not just a cloak it makes him look bigger and on occasion allows him to glide. He also has distraction devices that are used to confuse his enemies and body armor to take shots when needed.

No need to explain, I follow this stuff pretty close too. To put it in plainer words, Cap is on steroids, and Batman has plot armor. ;) . I really like the Batman Beyond suit better than his usual cape and cowl.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Regarding dodging bullets, I think you both might have been talking past each other. Cap and Batman aren't dodging the bullets themselves, so much as moving faster than the shooter can compensate. Moving faster than the shooter is one thing, moving faster than the speed of sound is another.

Pre-New 52 Batgirl (Cassandra Cain version) could actually dodge bullets pointblank and she technically wasn't even meta-human. The writers tried to justify it as "super martial-arts skills" :D.
 
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