F-22 Raptor Thread

A question maybe idiot but why build new fighters with very powerful engines limited to mach 2.2 F-22 or less Typhoon, Rafale mach 1.8, clearly less fast as their predecessors less sophisticated by ex F-15/Su-27 mach 2.5 ! it is enough strange.

Ofc these speed are very decent but remains interesting can have a speed more fast obviously.

This choice seems ? related to air inlets, stealth matters also eventualy

FORBIN said:

A question maybe idiot but why build new fighters with very powerful engines limited to mach 2.2 F-22 or less Typhoon, Rafale mach 1.8, clearly less fast as their predecessors less sophisticated by ex F-15/Su-27 mach 2.5 ! it is enough strange.

Ofc these speed are very decent but remains interesting can have a speed more fast obviously.

This choice seems ? related to air inlets, stealth matters also eventualy

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Very Good question? Your example of the Mig-31 has a very high top speed, but is overall a rehash of the Mig-25, both of which have a radar signature like the Empire State Building. To achieve those speeds requires lots of fuel, and may in fact damage the engines beyond their limits due to heat, and that heat makes it easy to find!

The F-22 on the other hand goes about its work at very high altitude, at very high speed, (Mach 1.8 supercruise without Burner), the F-22 is very stealthy? ( those 5 F-15 jockeys had no idea he was even there, despite one of the best radars in the business), so Jura's model of the Flankers against the F-22 is flawed because it is assumed that the Flankers will be able to target F-22s, which in practice, in real life has proven almost impossible!

So an aircraft that has a large radar return/heat signature, lacks overall maneuverability compared to new generation aircraft. Has to rely on hit and run to hopefully pick off a target which is very stealthy, while the 4.5 to 5th gens are relatively a little slower, but much more difficult to detect, emitting little to nearly nothing in the case of the F-22, while being much more fuel efficient.

The F-15 remains a very efficient with a tremendous radar, and in newer version RCS has been reduced, so against the same Mig-31, Su-35, and even the PAK-FA, is able to engage BVR, so while the Russian AAMs may have a longer range??? I rather doubt their radar is superior to that of the F-15, and in no way are they in the same league as the F-22, or even F-35.

I guess the focus has shifted. At the time of 2nd / 3rd gen designs everybody wanted speed (whatever the cost). Built nuclear bombers that outrun the interceptors, built fighters that can catch up with those bombers and so on.
With the 4th gen maneuverability (and sensors) were of interest, and then even more maneuverability, "stealth" and also affordability.
Pure speed, that realisticly could only be sustained for a rather short amount of time, wasn't worth all the effort anymore. It didn't provide operational / tactical advantages to justify the expense.

I'm not really sure how valid that fixed vs. variable inlet design and the associated Mach 2 "barrier" really are, but I guess providing optimal air flow along such a vast operating envelope takes it's toll. And more moving parts are an issue in RCS and maintenance.

While it's a bit "sad" from a technology standpoint that our jets go slower, the Mach 1.3 - 1.7 or so supercruise vs the old M 0.9 which can be sustained for a lot longer is worth more the the mentioned loss in top speed.

From 2010:

F-22 Raptors from Elmendorf Air Force Base fly over Alaska May 26. By U.S. Air force photo by Staff Sgt. Brian Ferguson -

Air Force Brat said:

Very Good question? Your example of the Mig-31 has a very high top speed, but is overall a rehash of the Mig-25, both of which have a radar signature like the Empire State Building. To achieve those speeds requires lots of fuel, and may in fact damage the engines beyond their limits due to heat, and that heat makes it easy to find!

The F-22 on the other hand goes about its work at very high altitude, at very high speed, (Mach 1.8 supercruise without Burner), the F-22 is very stealthy? ( those 5 F-15 jockeys had no idea he was even there, despite one of the best radars in the business), so Jura's model of the Flankers against the F-22 is flawed because it is assumed that the Flankers will be able to target F-22s, which in practice, in real life has proven almost impossible!

So an aircraft that has a large radar return/heat signature, lacks overall maneuverability compared to new generation aircraft. Has to rely on hit and run to hopefully pick off a target which is very stealthy, while the 4.5 to 5th gens are relatively a little slower, but much more difficult to detect, emitting little to nearly nothing in the case of the F-22, while being much more fuel efficient.

The F-15 remains a very efficient with a tremendous radar, and in newer version RCS has been reduced, so against the same Mig-31, Su-35, and even the PAK-FA, is able to engage BVR, so while the Russian AAMs may have a longer range??? I rather doubt their radar is superior to that of the F-15, and in no way are they in the same league as the F-22, or even F-35.

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turkey shoot again
I would've thought you might consider the USAF Major assumes losses between Raptors, the one who wrote the paper in 2011: five or so years after FOC had been declared, the Raptors didn't have short-range AAMs; pressurized cabin; EOTS (wasn't it strange, in 2011?) ... this all contributes when one goes against numerically superior OPFOR, but to you, Raptor is impervious, and my imagination of air combat is different, so I'll run the last simulation when I tried to guess (based on that paper) what the coefficients for Raptors/F-15 would be (technical part: (4/3)*0.4 Blue; (3/4)*3.3 Red); thanks for arguing, and you may have the last word here (I'm not going to respond, to avoid "back and forth discussion"):

So 8 F-22 destroyed vs 24 F-15 : 1 for 3 it is a true minimum coz in 2011 F-15 and in your ex. presumably USAF F-15C with AN/APG-63(V)1 ) completely outmatched by APG-77/F-22 a range vs 1 m2 target of 90 vs 240 km !!! in more F-15 don' t get IRST and i don' t speack for dogfight and stealth...

In fact F-22 detect F-15 do 10/15 m2 to 350 + km and F-15 detect F-22 to ~ 10 km... but AIM-120C have a range of 110 km fortunately for the F-15

Remains EM, IR signature different, EM can be very big but seems APG-77 very discreet and for this virtual combat definitely don' t do a big difference.

This comparison worck for Su-27 also considered want/equal to F-15 but definitely during Cold War F-15 better coz US pilots much more trained flight much more about 200 h/year vs 100 in more USAF get Agressors Sqn and Soviets don't have.

For me about ofc with real combat, conditions are different possible some F-15 get more close and one F-22 for 4/6 F-15 one for a flight of F-15 for give an idea.

It was more interesting with a F-15 with a AESA.

Come on Jura find a new opponent

Jura said:

turkey shoot again
I would've thought you might consider the USAF Major assumes losses between Raptors, the one who wrote the paper

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in 2011: five or so years after FOC had been declared, the Raptors didn't have short-range AAMs; pressurized cabin; EOTS (wasn't it strange, in 2011?) ... this all contributes when one goes against numerically superior OPFOR, but to you, Raptor is impervious, and my imagination of air combat is different, so I'll run the last simulation when I tried to guess (based on that paper) what the coefficients for Raptors/F-15 would be (technical part: (4/3)*0.4 Blue; (3/4)*3.3 Red); thanks for arguing, and you may have the last word here (I'm not going to respond, to avoid "back and forth discussion"):

(four "Raptors" survive at the point where there are no "Eagles" left EDIT hope people understand I'm not talking new Civil War or something ​

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On page 9 of the Majors research paper Master Jura, he states that he is assuming the SU-27s have the ability to detect, acquire, and Kill the OP-FORs F-22s....... this in order to employ the Lancaster Law equations....... that my friend is simply not accurate.

In addition this research paper for the Major's Master Degree, was written as F-22 production had halted, ( yes, everyone in the fighter community was/is in a panic).

As well the F-35 program, and the F-35 aircraft itself were in great jeopardy of failure?? that is no longer the case, thanks to Gen Chris Bogdan, and his ("don't try?--DO! attitude and practice, which has pulled the F-35 out of its "FUNK".

So the errant assumption of the SU-27s partial parity to the F-22 in detecting, acquiring, and killing an F-22 is the major error in the Lancaster Equation, there are other assumptions as well??

The Major was warning that our fighter shortfall places us in jeopardy, (true),,, but F-35 production is now on the increase, and the F-35 itself has evolved into a much more capable, stealthy aircraft, that may be more dangerous than even the Raptor??? A solution to the Majors concern, that did not look likely at the time given all the rancourous hate for the F-35 program/aircraft, however the F-35 has emerged as a Mini-Raptor, very capable, and able to fill the gap in most cases that had been left by capping Raptor production.

So, whether or not you young European Gent's have confidence in the F-22 or F-35, you should at least trust your Faithful Air Force Brat! I won't steer you wrong!

this time I have to take it from the end:

FORBIN said:

...
Come on Jura find a new opponent

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I truly hope all these exercises, simulations and so on will NOT be needed for real, as large-scale encounters of highest-level aircraft would mean WAR (remember how tense the situation was in Syria after just one Fencer had been downed November 24?) so I'll just briefly react to this:

FORBIN said:

... but AIM-120C have a range of 110 km fortunately for the F-15

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the assumption in the model, at least as far as I understand it, is no force backs off ... then, since Raptors are in numerical DISadvantage in the simulation, a part of the OPFOR would NOT be hit by long range AAMs, and in like six minutes a melee would begin ... I'll leave it at that.

I think it would be a reasonable assumption that a suitable equipped Su-27 can acquire, track and target an F-22 in the IR spectrum

The arms show below has various EOTS sensors and IR air-to-air missiles available for export, with a stated detection range of 70km against an F-22.

Air Force Brat said:

On page 9 of the Majors research paper Master Jura, he states that he is assuming the SU-27s have the ability to detect, acquire, and Kill the OP-FORs F-22s....... this in order to employ the Lancaster Law equations....... that my friend is simply not accurate.

Click to expand...

The applicability of the Lancaster Law is predicated upon certain assumptions which in this case does not present the essential condition. i.e. for the SU-27 to hit back. The reasons are all there why the Russians and Chinese are building their own stealth aircraft and the investments in improving their sensors because stealth works. The remaining question is how big is potentially the kill ratio. The limiting factor is primarily the missile carrying capacity which the US is addressing through the sensor shooter concept using cooperative engagement.