F-22 Raptor Thread

Jura said:

then I'm sorry to repeat myself

I mean since a Raptor carries up to 8 missiles, and a launch doesn't always mean a hit ... you know, I hope a victory wasn't declared upon a target which was just locked-on

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An average of 50 % coz ECM, evasive maneuver etc...

FORBIN said:

An average of 50 % coz ECM, evasive maneuver etc...

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I think your data is inaccurate bro, newer AAM are very deadly, and with AIM9X, and similar AAM, kill ratio per shot will go up. So if you wouldn't mind, post your source, others are welcome to post kill ratios with accurate, verifiable data. I would love it if an aircraft had a 50% survival rate against AAM, but I believe they are far more effective than that these days.

As I pointed out, the kill ratio also depends on the firing aircrafts position and heading and speed in relation to the target, AAM are much more effective off the Raptor due to its high altitude and supercruise increasing missle dynamic performance.

Air Force Brat said:

I think your data is inaccurate bro, newer AAM are very deadly, and with AIM9X, and similar AAM, kill ratio per shot will go up. So if you wouldn't mind, post your source, others are welcome to post kill ratios with accurate, verifiable data. I would love it if an aircraft had a 50% survival rate against AAM, but I believe they are far more effective than that these days.

As I pointed out, the kill ratio also depends on the firing aircrafts position and heading and speed in relation to the target, AAM are much more effective off the Raptor due to its high altitude and supercruise increasing missle dynamic performance.

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Historically the PK is just above 50 % but I also agree that the newer AAM's are more deadly because of multi seekers and two way links.



Also to ensure a kill, a launch of 2 missiles to one target would also be a probable SOP. A F-22 carries eight AAM's and so against 3 targets would likely ensure a kill. If against eight there might be room for contention in view of the fact that the PK is unlikely to be one.

Brumby said:

Historically the PK is just above 50 % but I also agree that the newer AAM's are more deadly because of multi seekers and two way links.

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Also to ensure a kill, a launch of 2 missiles to one target would also be a probable SOP. A F-22 carries eight AAM's and so against 3 targets would likely ensure a kill. If against eight there might be room for contention in view of the fact that the PK is unlikely to be one.

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In the Stealthy F-22, where you have a very specific altitude advantage, and are able to stand off a safe distance, cloaked as it were, it is very possible that your AAMs have a 100% kill ratios as your missile will have a very distinct speed and energy advantage over your target..

however, whether or not your missle scores a kill, the target aircraft is totally defensive for that period of time that it is forced to take evasive action and is taken out of the fight for those minutes, possibly terminally in that engagement.

Air Force Brat said:

In the Stealthy F-22, where you have a very specific altitude advantage, and are able to stand off a safe distance, cloaked as it were, it is very possible that your AAMs have a 100% kill ratios as your missile will have a very distinct speed and energy advantage over your target..

however, whether or not your missle scores a kill, the target aircraft is totally defensive for that period of time that it is forced to take evasive action and is taken out of the fight for those minutes, possibly terminally in that engagement.

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I agree that the F-22 has the advantage due to kinematics . It was specifically mentioned in the CBSA report (from where I took the statistics) that the F-22 with super cruise potentially can generate an additional 1/3 missile range just because of momentum.

Nevertheless we need to acknowledge the counter point that PK's historically don't support a perfect kill ratio.

Air Force Brat said:

Happy Easter Bub, you need to watch Top Gun, that is honestly how its done? ...

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Brother, are you telling me The Fairy Tale Of One Raptor Devouring Many Eagles? that's how I feel after I saw recent posts here

Brumby said:

...

Nevertheless we need to acknowledge the counter point that PK's historically don't support a perfect kill ratio.

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that's an understatement if ever there was one

Air Force Brat said:

I think your data is inaccurate bro, newer AAM are very deadly, and with AIM9X, and similar AAM, kill ratio per shot will go up. So if you wouldn't mind, post your source, others are welcome to post kill ratios with accurate, verifiable data. I would love it if an aircraft had a 50% survival rate against AAM, but I believe they are far more effective than that these days.

As I pointed out, the kill ratio also depends on the firing aircrafts position and heading and speed in relation to the target, AAM are much more effective off the Raptor due to its high altitude and supercruise increasing missle dynamic performance.

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I have see it in several places this % an average for give an idea... and sems Mr Brumby confirm
You think what % you

For range maybe but i don' t think speed of fighter influence really AAM speed coz they get in general a speed of mach 3/4.5 and fighter max 2.5 then for me no.
For get more big energy agility mainly in end of range a missile with a ramjet is the solution.

Possible guns more lethal ofc at very short range, no ECM but very few time for fired.

no need to naysay what's below, it's basically just to check my scripts for Lanchester equations still work you can check the Thread
Mathematical model of air-to-air combat and loses
for example https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/ma...ir-to-air-combat-and-loses.t6641/#post-254699
which is based on
STRATEGIC IMPLICATIONS OF US FIGHTER FORCE REDUCTIONS:
AIR-TO-AIR COMBAT MODELING USING LANCHESTER EQUATIONS


the attrition coefficients put up by an American author are used:

at the end:

• out of twelve "Raptors" "sent to the fight", eight are still flying;
• out of twenty-four "Flankers" "sent to the fight", all are gone

(and that author of course highly favored F-15 against Su-27: Table 4 in this PDF)

FORBIN said:

For range maybe but i don' t think speed of fighter influence really AAM speed coz they get in general a speed of mach 3/4.5 and fighter max 2.5 then for me no.
For get more big energy agility mainly in end of range a missile with a ramjet is the solution.

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Well, a missile launched at greater speed will get to it's top speed faster and maintain it for longer, thus travelling a greater distance with top speed. At the time of motor burn out, the missile launched at higher speed will have gone further already. From then on, the missile launched at higher speed will be faster (more energy) at the same distance from launch than the competitor missile.
And I think the difference between a launch at M0.9 or M1.5 can be quiete significant.
Even more so a launch at higher altitude, were density / friction are lower and I think rocket motors work more efficiently.

Although, any "throttlable" engine (like a ramjet) on a missile will be even more effective.

Ah yes and in this case the better/more fast fighter is the Mig-31 able get a speed of mach 2.8 and Mig-31BM are armed with AA-13 which get the more long range about 300+ km mach 6 !!! a monster.

But i am not completely sure if he is in service.