Zheng He (1371-1433), the Chinese Muslim Admiral

Admiral Yi sunk a thousand Japanese ships over the course of the war and lost less than a dozen.
When he was removed from command for political reasons, his replacement lost 286 ships in one battle while inflicting far less losses on the Japanese.
Admiral Yi defeated a fleet of 300 Japanese ships with 13 ships.
Admiral Yi destroyed 550 Japanese ships in a single batte with only 83 Korean ships and 60 Chinese allied ships.
Wow, I kind of feel like I'm telling Chuck Norris jokes here... thats how incredibly godly/amazing Admiral Yi is. If he was alive today, I bet he could sink the entire USN with the PLAN and loss no ships...

However, the ships of Korea, China, and Japan during this period were remarkably different.
Japanese naval strategy was one of grappling and boarding enemy ships and then defeating them in hand to hand combat. There primary ranged weapon was some kind of heavy musket, which fired a shot heavy enough to damage the hull of enemy ships, but with much inferior range and power to the cannon. These ships were smaller than Chinese and Korean ships, but were much swifter. Japanese ships also had keels, unliked the flat-bottomed Korean and Chinese vessels.
The Korean ships of the time were the Panokseon. They were armed with long range heavy cannon, and were much heavier than Japanese vessels. They were slower, but had flat bottoms and were more manuevable. Korean crews were inferior at hand-to-hand combat, and tried to avoid close-in combat. At close ranges, Korean crews also employed fire archers. Admiral Yi's stragtegy involved long-ranged combat and attacking from positions which made if difficult for the Japanese to close with the Korean warships. Panokseons were built in two sizes. The medium-sized variants were around 70 feet long, while larger variants was between 100ft and 120ft in lengh.
The Ming Navy of the time operated war junks. Among the most commonly used was the Fuchuan Warship. These were generally 165 feet long, making them the largest vessels used in the conflict. Chinese ships were cannon-armed. Chinese crews also operated crossbows. Chinese ships were flatbottomed like Korean ones. Chinese strategy during the conflict generally included long-range bombardment followed by close-in assaults.
 
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QBZ957

New Member
Another way the Ming navy was able to defeat the enemy quickly was their ship formations. One in particular is known as the 'fei yin' or my guess the bird formation (because it does look like a bird). What it does if it was some type of expedition fleet, they would have like the treasure ships in the middle, then the supply ships or any other non-combat personnel ships to form a column in the middle. Then they would 3 battleships lined up like a spearhead in the front, a line of 4 or 5 on the top left and right hand corners and another 4 or 5 on the bottom left or right hand corners of the column. It allowed them to still be able to move properly to their destination while still with the ability to engage the enemy at will.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Regarding Chinese vessels, if I recall, Marco Polo's return journey with a Mongol princess to be sent to married to the Ilkhan in Persia, took place at sea and traveled much of the same route with Zheng He would take later on. The journey reached the Middle East and from then Marco Polo continued his trip back to Venice. And he did this with what seemed to be a routine trading vessel of that time without an armada or something like that. So it does seem that Chinese, Arab, Indian and Malaysian traders are already routinely traveling and trading between and along the ports from the Middle East to China. Zheng He didn't pioneer anything that traders already knew; his journey was more to trumpet the power of the Ming on an established route.

In my opinion, the value of the Treasure ships are exaggerated. You get the impression from watching documentaries that Chinese ship building went downhill to the can since they scrapped the fleet. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

While their size makes them engineering masterpieces for the day, they must also be slow and inefficient. Slow elephants when smaller, more nimble ships could do the job more faster and economically. Surely the next Emperor after the Yongle Emperor made a decree limiting the size and number of masts a Chinese vessel can be made. Blaming the technological decline of a nation to a decision akin to banning full size SUVs in order to make minicars is in my opinion, quite a bit of a stretch. I don't think the Chinese Navy would win their battles with huge, lumbering full size ships against smaller more nimble opponents. The Spanish learned that lesson when their Armada faced the English fleet.

And certainly the Treasure Ships were not just the only large junks built. Accounts by European explorers aout the 15th Century, of sighting junks of about 2000 tons or four times the size of 16th Century European Galleons, with as many as five masts. In comparison even the massive Portugese Carreons were like 1000 tons. Junks visiting Japan were recorded to be around 200 to 800 tons. Betweem the time of the Yongle Emperor to the Qianlong Emperor, there was literally thousands of junks, and the Chinese literally had both the biggest wartime and merchant fleet in the world. Even 'pirates' and Ming holdovers like Zheng Chenggong aka Koxinga fielded junks by the hundreds.

In 1848, a junk named Keyin reached past the Cape of Good Hope, reached Boston, and then reached all the way to London in a mere 21 days, a speed which even English ships have trouble matching. The vessel, which ended her days as a tourist exhibit, was about 800 tons and featured 20 cannons.
 
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mindreader

New Member
crobato said:
Regarding Chinese vessels, if I recall, Marco Polo's return journey with a Mongol princess to be sent to married to the Ilkhan in Persia, took place at sea and traveled much of the same route with Zheng He would take later on. The journey reached the Middle East and from then Marco Polo continued his trip back to Venice. And he did this with what seemed to be a routine trading vessel of that time without an armada or something like that. So it does seem that Chinese, Arab, Indian and Malaysian traders are already routinely traveling and trading between and along the ports from the Middle East to China. Zheng He didn't pioneer anything that traders already knew; his journey was more to trumpet the power of the Ming on an established route.

In my opinion, the value of the Treasure ships are exaggerated. You get the impression from watching documentaries that Chinese ship building went downhill to the can since they scrapped the fleet. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

While their size makes them engineering masterpieces for the day, they must also be slow and inefficient. Slow elephants when smaller, more nimble ships could do the job more faster and economically. Surely the next Emperor after the Yongle Emperor made a decree limiting the size and number of masts a Chinese vessel can be made. Blaming the technological decline of a nation to a decision akin to banning full size SUVs in order to make minicars is in my opinion, quite a bit of a stretch. I don't think the Chinese Navy would win their battles with huge, lumbering full size ships against smaller more nimble opponents. The Spanish learned that lesson when their Armada faced the English fleet.

And certainly the Treasure Ships were not just the only large junks built. Accounts by European explorers aout the 15th Century, of sighting junks of about 2000 tons or four times the size of 16th Century European Galleons, with as many as five masts. In comparison even the massive Portugese Carreons were like 1000 tons. Junks visiting Japan were recorded to be around 200 to 800 tons. Betweem the time of the Yongle Emperor to the Qianlong Emperor, there was literally thousands of junks, and the Chinese literally had both the biggest wartime and merchant fleet in the world. Even 'pirates' and Ming holdovers like Zheng Chenggong aka Koxinga fielded junks by the hundreds.

In 1848, a junk named Keyin reached past the Cape of Good Hope, reached Boston, and then reached all the way to London in a mere 21 days, a speed which even English ships have trouble matching. The vessel, which ended her days as a tourist exhibit, was about 800 tons and featured 20 cannons.

I think you are understressing the value of the treasury ships. To start, they are in their time, among the fastest ships on earth relative to the rest of the world. No country in the world other than China can build vessels that matched their speed (of course, "nimbleness" is another issue).

Furthermore, you didn't stress importance of the strength of large see going vessels. Certainly, smaller ships (built in China that is) can out-run such lumbering giants, but they are also severely limited to quite a few practical disadvantages. The most important of which is lack of cargo space,which is a pretty huge disadvantage for trade vessels, but also ensures shorter distance travelled between port calls. This, in effect, limits the range in which they can travel. This is why we still use 100,000 ton cargo ships today.

Lastly, you mistake the treasure ships for warships. Certainly, I wouldn't want to be caught on the broadside of one of these, but that is not their role, which is that of trading vessels. People tend to forget that the Ming fleet was a combined fleet. Not all ships are over 300 metres long. There are ships of different sizes in formation filling different roles. There are far more warships faster, more nimble and more powerful than the treasure ships defending them.

But you are right on one thing. Even after the destruction of Zheng He's fleet, Chinese naval capabilities didn't decline significantly. The Ming fleet was still the most powerful fleet on earth for couple of decades and was at worst, the best in Asia and one of the best in the world even towards the end.

The difference really, is that the Europeans improved whereas the Chinese did not. You can blame the Qing Dynasty for that.
 

T98G

Just Hatched
Registered Member
It wasn't the scraping of the fleet that the Ming navy went down hill, there were other factor such as the destruction of the navigation charts and the design plans for the ships in 1477.

There were actually plans to rebuild the navy in the later years, but because of the destruction of the design plans for the ships it was impossible.

The Ming court officials were certainly backward thinking and didn't think the fleets is needed. So all plans of the fleet were destroy so as not to make this mistake ever again.
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Has anyone read the book 1421: The Year China discovered America? It presents quite a bit of convincing evidence that the treasure fleets continued around the world and charted the West Coast of Africa, the Carribean, South Africa and the Pacific and circumnavigated the globe before returning home. I personally consider it to be a very real possibility. :china:
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Finn McCool said:
Has anyone read the book 1421: The Year China discovered America? It presents quite a bit of convincing evidence that the treasure fleets continued around the world and charted the West Coast of Africa, the Carribean, South Africa and the Pacific and circumnavigated the globe before returning home. I personally consider it to be a very real possibility.

Then I'm afraid, Finn, you're a bit naive in terms of historical issues - no offence. More knowledgable academics have repeatedly given it a big thumbs down. One thing that you should realise is that as far as I can remember, to date no real historian (i.e. an academic with qualifications and perhaps a position at a university) has actually backed his claims in public. He gets lots of other "experts" - but sadly they all operate in other areas of expertise. It's a bit like when he goes to ask someone that does crossword puzzles for advice on a source, rather than a cryptologist.

Put it like this - Jung Chang's book on Mao has been better received by historians than Menzies.

Plenty of professional sites to read here:

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(This source is very interesting, because it's a refutation by a naval officer. According to his
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, Menzies completely failed to counter her husband's arguments when he went to see Menzies.)

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"Ultimately, however, Menzies's presentation in 1421 is much like that delivered at the United Nations recently by Secretary of State Powell regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction: convincing only to true believers and leaving others at best, in the words of the old hymn, "almost persuaded."

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"This is not just a story about ones man’s wild theory. It is a parable of modern popular culture, a tale about intellectual chutzpah and about a publishing industry that knows how to extract profit from a public which wants to thumb its nose at the dry though documented history taught at school."
 
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D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Oops, I think that sources numbers 3 and 4 were in post #24. Well, never mind, you get to read them again. :)

Also a few new ones.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

This should rock the world of some of my fellow westerners. Here's the wikipedia article on the 1421 hypothesis.
The 1421 hypothesis of Chinese contact with the Americas originates from former British Royal Navy submarine commander Gavin Menzies. In his book, 1421: The Year China Discovered The World (first published in 2002) Menzies suggests that during the Ming Dynasty era from 1421 to 1423, ships commanded by the Chinese captains Zhou Wen (周聞), Zhou Man (周滿), Yang Qing (楊慶) and Hong Bao (洪保), in the fleet of Emperor Zhu Di's (朱棣) Admiral Zheng He (鄭和), travelled to many parts of the world.

According to Menzies, their discoveries include Australia, New Zealand, the Americas (well before Christopher Columbus crossed the Atlantic), Antarctica, the northern coast of Greenland, and the Northeast Passage. The knowledge of these discoveries has been lost, Menzies argues, because the Mandarins (administrators) of the Emperor's court took a strict line on new adventures after lightning (which was considered a sign of divine anger) had burnt down the newly constructed Forbidden City. A year later, his successor (son), the Hongxi Emperor, then forbade making new voyages, and his advisors hid or destroyed all accounts of Zheng He's voyages.

The 1421 hypothesis has proven unpopular among scholars. It proposes a revolutionary interpretation of established historical opinion but has been criticized for providing inadequate proof, largely relying on contested documents.

Contents [hide]
1 Method
1.1 Maps
1.2 Other evidence
2 Criticism
2.1 Australia
3 Achievement
4 References
5 See also
6 External links
6.1 News stories
6.2 Debunking sites



[edit]
Method
Menzies bases his theory on Chinese shipwrecks, old maps, surviving Chinese literature from the time, and accounts written by navigators such as Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan. Menzies also believes that unexplained structures such as the Newport Tower and the Bimini Road were constructed by Zheng He's men.

[edit]
Maps

Menzies claims the Kangnido map (1402) (above) seems to describe the entirety of the Old World, from Europe and Africa in the west, to Korea and Japan in the east, with an oversized China in the middle.
Menzies says one of the inscriptions on the Fra Mauro map (1459) relates the travels of an Asian junk deep into the Atlantic Ocean around 1420.Several maps were used by Menzies:

The Kangnido map (混一疆理歷代國都之圖 or 疆理圖) (1402), which Menzies says indicates an extensive geographical knowledge of the Old World (and particularly of the contour of the African continent) by Eastern Asian countries, even before the time of Zheng He's expeditions.
The Pizzigano map (1424)
The Fra Mauro map (1459), which describes an expedition by an "Indian" ship into the Atlantic around 1420; Menzies claims "Indian" in this case really referred to Chinese ships:
"About the year of Our Lord 1420 a ship, what is called an Indian junk (lit. "Zoncho de India", "India" meaning Asia in 15th century Europe), on a crossing of the Sea of India towards the Isle of Men and Women (close to Socotra), was diverted beyond the Cape of Diab (Cape of Good Hope), through the Green Isles, out into the Sea of Darkness (Atlantic Ocean) on a way west and southwest. Nothing but air and water was seen for 40 days and by their reckoning they ran 2,000 miles and fortune deserted them. When the stress of the weather had subsided they made the return to the said Cape of Diab in 70 days and drawing near to the shore to supply their wants the sailors saw the egg of a bird called roc." (Fra Mauro map, Inscription 10, A13).
The Cantino map (1502)
The Waldeseemüller map (1507)
The Piri Reis map (1513)
The Johannes Schöner globe (One was made in 1515 and another in 1520)
The Jean Rotz map (1542)
The Wu Pei Chi (Wu Bei Zhi; 武備志) map (redrawn after Zheng He's maps in 1628)
The Vinland map, redrawn in 15th Century from a 13th century original.
Also, the De Virga world map (1411-1415) has been presented on Gavin Menzies's 1421 website as new evidence of the propagation of eastern cartographic know-how before the European Age of Discovery.

[edit]
Other evidence
Additional supporting evidence given by Menzies includes:

DNA studies purportedly showing "recent" DNA flow from China to indigenous people of North & South America, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
A drawing of an animal in a book reportedly published in China in 1430 showing what Menzies claims is an armadillo, an animal found only in the New World.
Bananas and rice plantations were reportedly seen along the banks of the Amazon by Francisco de Orellana, 1541.
Reported indications of horses, flightless ducks and Asiatic pigs possibly in the New World prior to Columbus's arrival.
Carved stones with what Menzies claims is Asian writing found in places such as the Cape Verde islands, South America and New Zealand.
Artifacts such as Chinese porcelain and Chinese jade found in the Americas which Menzies claims date back before the arrival of Europeans.
Cases of some diseases, such as smallpox, reportedly appearing before the arrival of Europeans.
Seeming linguistic similarities with the Chinese language of place names in Peru and Chile.
Also quoted are the accounts of Bartolomé de las Casas, according to which two dead bodies that looked like Indians were found on Flores (Azores). De las Casas said he found that fact in Columbus' notes, and it was one of the reasons that led Columbus to assume India was on the other side of the ocean.

[edit]
Criticism
Menzies' hypotheses have found little or no support among mainstream historians. Robert Finlay: "Examination of the book's central claims reveals they are uniformly without substance." [1] John E. Wills: "These myriad flaws do not make Menzies' book completely useless to teachers of world history. Rather, it might be used to teach students about the use and misuse of historical evidence." [2]

The 1421 hypothesis is based on documents of debatable provenance (the Piri Reis map, the Vinland map) and on original interpretation of accepted documents (Fra Mauro map, de las Casas) and archaeological findings. Critics argue[citation needed] that the cartographic evidence admits of much more straightforward explanations than those given by Menzies, while his archaeological evidence is often extremely dubious and in some cases demonstrably incorrect.

One key question is why the alleged great voyages of 1421 managed to touch every corner of the world except Europe, where a record of their occurrence would likely have been made and maintained. Given the fact that Chinese-European contact existed for well over three centuries by the 15th century, it is difficult to understand why nothing of these voyages can be found in the historical record. Menzies has provided scant evidence of any such visit, simply alluding to vague European contact — but contact between the two cultures dates to the Renaissance and does not depend upon any large-scale sea travel.[citation needed]

Critics also maintain that the linguistic evidence cited by Menzies is questionable. It is well known that one can easily find similarities between words taken from any pair of languages purely by chance, so the short lists of resemblances cited by Menzies demonstrate nothing. Furthermore, none of the alleged Chinese words listed by Menzies as similar to words of the same meaning in the Squamish language of British Columbia is a real Chinese word. Similarly, the presence of Chinese-speaking people in various locations in the Americas could be explained by immigration after Columbus, yet Menzies cites no evidence that these communities existed prior to Columbus.

Another criticism is that Menzies chose not to consult the most obvious source of information on the Zheng He voyages, namely the Chinese records from the period themselves.[citation needed]

Some critics have questioned Menzies' nautical knowledge, shiphandling skills and whether he has actually sailed the routes he has claimed, particularly while commanding HMS "Rorqual".

Menzies also mislead people about his background as a China expert. On the dust jacket of 1421, Menzies states that he was born in China. In fact he was born in London.[3]


Australia
Given by Menzies as evidence of Chinese contact in Australia is the reported existence of stone structures in and around Sydney and Newcastle, Australia. These structures in fact do not exist, or if they do Menzies has failed to tell people where he found them. Menzies writes on 203 of the 'Chinese' ruins in Bittangabee Bay. They are however more likely a structure built for the Imlay family in the 1840's than ancient Chinese. On page 220 there is the claim that "A beautiful carved stone head of the goddess Ma Tsu...is now in the Kedumba Nature Museum in Katoomba." In fact no such museum actually exists. There once was a curio stand in Katoomba called "Kedumba Nature Display" but it closed down in the 1980's. Later on in the book, Menzies recruits "a local researcher", Rex Gilroy, for his valuable discovery of a Chinese pyramid in Queensland the Gympie Pyramid. Menzies claims that the Gympie pyramid is "the most direct and persuasive evidence of the Chinese visits to Australia" (1421, p221). However, this is the same Rex Gilroy who at one time ran the "Kedumba Museum" and found the Chinese carved goddess Ma Tsu from the Chinese Fleets, a connection which Menzies fails to mention. Menzies also fails to mention that Gilroy himself used the Gympie Pyramid as evidence of the Egyptian discovery of Australia. (By the way Rex Gilroy is also well known in Australia as the "father of Yowie research", Australia's Bigfoot, "discovering" foot prints etc.[4]) The Gympie Pyramid has been researched idependently and found to be part of a retaining wall built by an Italian farmer to stop erosion on a natural mesa on his property.


Achievement
Whatever its historical merits, Menzies' book and the surrounding publicity has succeeded in raising awareness of Zheng He and the Ming Imperial Treasure Fleets, reaching a much broader audience than any previous work on the subject, in part through recent television documentaries on the History Channel.

I read the book, and I must say that much of it is very convincing. I'm lazy so I just put the wiki article, but any more info on this would be appreciated.
 
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Kampfwagen

Junior Member
Re: China Discovers North America, Circumnavigates the World

Most scientists beleve that alot of North, Central, And South America were colonized by various Old World civilizations. Many suspect that parts of the Southwest of the United States and Central America might have had contacts between African Explorers. Parts of Nicaragua are beleved to have been visited by the Japanese and of course there is the well known Colonization of Newfoundland by the Vikings. And dozens of nations have aluded to lands beyond the known oceans, some with quite a degree of Accuracy to areas in the Americas.

So if the Chinese came over, it does not suprise me. But it would also not suprise me to hear they were not the first, but one in a long line of unrecorded visitors.
 
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