China's Defense Spending Thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
Top 10 defense spenders in 2015. Saudi Arabia spends about 11% of their GDP on defense.

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What's the source of these numbers? Chinese defense spending looks low. According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, China spends closer to $216 billion (about 2.06% GDP) on defense in 2014, so it's probably more in 2015.
 

Franklin

Captain
What's the source of these numbers? Chinese defense spending looks low. According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, China spends closer to $216 billion (about 2.06% GDP) on defense in 2014, so it's probably more in 2015.
These are all official numbers that the governments provide. All of them also have off budget items that are not included in these numbers. Including those then you may get close to 2% of GDP.
 

weig2000

Captain
What's the source of these numbers? Chinese defense spending looks low. According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, China spends closer to $216 billion (about 2.06% GDP) on defense in 2014, so it's probably more in 2015.

Do you have any source on how they come up with such a number ($216 billion)? It's more than 50% higher than the official budget, highly unlikely. While we don't have to trust the Chinese official defense budget completely, it's still more trustworthy than these western estimates/speculations. The psychology behind of inflating China's defense budget is similar to, although seemingly conflicting with, that of constantly deflating China's GDP growth rate (2, 3, 4% vs. 7%).

The defense budget number in any country may be different depending how you account some of the items, for example veteran' care and benefit, some R&D spending, and certain special provisions. It's the same in the US and other western countries.

Many of the western stock arguments and figures against China are very dubious at best; these include the $5 trillion trade goods through SCS, China's GDP growth rate, China's defense budget, China spends more on "stability maintenance" than on defense, etc., etc.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Do you have any source on how they come up with such a number ($216 billion)? It's more than 50% higher than the official budget, highly unlikely. While we don't have to trust the Chinese official defense budget completely, it's still more trustworthy than these western estimates/speculations. The psychology behind of inflating China's defense budget is similar to, although seemingly conflicting with, that of constantly deflating China's GDP growth rate (2, 3, 4% vs. 7%).

The defense budget number in any country may be different depending how you account some of the items, for example veteran' care and benefit, some R&D spending, and certain special provisions. It's the same in the US and other western countries.

Many of the western stock arguments and figures against China are very dubious at best; these include the $5 trillion trade goods through SCS, China's GDP growth rate, China's defense budget, China spends more on "stability maintenance" than on defense, etc., etc.
Here's the SIPRI website, and they make their database freely available to anyone. At least anyone whose government don't setup firewalls to prevent free access to it.

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weig2000

Captain
Not really surprising if true, I would say.

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China to announce big increase in defence spending, say analysts
Military expenses likely to be higher to fund troop lay-offs as part of modernisation drive

Minnie Chan
[email protected]

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China is likely to announce a substantial increase in the military’s budget, according to analysts, amid a massive reorganisation of the PLA and increased tensions over territorial claims in the East and South China Seas.

The government is expected to reveal its proposed annual budget for the world’s biggest army this Saturday, when the National People’s Congress opens its annual session.

Analysts said spending was likely to be much higher due to the expense of laying off huge numbers of troops as part of the overhaul aimed at modernising and improving the efficiency of the military.

President Xi Jinping announced last September a cut of 300,000 military personnel by 2017, mostly among non-combat troops. The PLA will remain the world’s biggest military force after its numbers are cut to about two million.

“I think even an increase of 20 per cent would be acceptable this time, even though it would be the highest since 2007,” a source close to the People’s Liberation Army said.

“A big reduction in troops doesn’t mean the PLA will cut the budget immediately as it should allocate a certain proportion of spending for retirement pay or other lay-off compensation in the coming two years.”

Another source, close to the navy, said increasing tensions with China’s neighbours and the US in the East and South China seas had also prompted Beijing to increase the defence budget to boost security in the region.

The US started sending warships to sail close to Chinese-controlled islets and reefs in disputed areas of the South China Sea last October.

Admiral Harry Harris, the head of the US Navy’s Pacific Command, said last week that the Pentagon would increase missions in the area to exercise freedom of navigation in international waters. Beijing says the operations are a provocation and challenge its territorial sovereignty.

“China should increase boosting defensive weaponry in the South China Sea, including advanced radar systems, warships, aircraft and other equipment for garrisons stationed on the remote islands, which will need a lot of money,” the naval source said.

US intelligence says China has deployed J-11 fighter jets, JH-7 bombers and two batteries of HQ-9 surface-to-air missiles on Woody Island, also known as Yongxing Island, in the South China Sea in recent weeks.

The navy also appears to be upgrading its combat capabilities in the East China Sea where it is locked in a territorial dispute with Japan over the Diaoyu Islands, known as the Senkakus in Japan.

The PLA announced last week that it had put into service a domestic-made advanced missile frigate in the region.

Another source close to the newly established Southern Theatre Command said the army would also give pay rises to boost morale amid unhappiness over lay-offs and the sweeping military reorganisation.

“The army had a 20 to 40 per cent pay rise in January, which was decided last year,” the source said.

Senior officials in the military were considering another round of pay increases around the time of the annual celebration of the PLA’s formation on August 1, which needed to be approved by the NPC, the source said.

Military spending was budgeted to increase 10.1 per cent in 2015, the lowest growth rate in five years.

The PLA was allocated 886.9 billion yuan (HK$1 trillion). That compares with a US defence budget of about US$597 billion last year.

However, an average of double-digit increases in defence spending for the PLA over the past two decades has made other countries in the region nervous.

Japan has approved its largest ever defence budget of US$41.4 billion in the coming year.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Not really surprising if true, I would say.

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While it's true China's defense budget rose dramatically in the last 20 years, things need to be put in perspective. China's average annual military expenditure went from about 1.7% GDP in 1996 to 2.06% in 2014. That sounds like China spend lots of its GDP on defense, but when you consider the global average is 2.3% GDP, it's not out of the norm.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
While it's true China's defense budget rose dramatically in the last 20 years, things need to be put in perspective. China's average annual military expenditure went from about 1.7% GDP in 1996 to 2.06% in 2014. That sounds like China spend lots of its GDP on defense, but when you consider the global average is 2.3% GDP, it's not out of the norm.

after more than 20 years of double digit growth, the defence budget still only accounts for 2.06% of the economy, and it's unlikely to go up in the short time.

take 2015 for instance, China's economy growth rate hitted the 25 year low at 6.9%, adjusted by inflation, in nominal term that's 8.3%, the difference is only 1.8%, so the percentage of defence budget to the GDP has gone up by 1.8% of 2.06%, that's 0.037%.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
after more than 20 years of double digit growth, the defence budget still only accounts for 2.06% of the economy, and it's unlikely to go up in the short time.

take 2015 for instance, China's economy growth rate hitted the 25 year low at 6.9%, adjusted by inflation, in nominal term that's 8.3%, the difference is only 1.8%, so the percentage of defence budget to the GDP has gone up by 1.8% of 2.06%, that's 0.037%.

If you are using annualized growth rate, you have to use quarterly deflator, which is a separate data set different from CPI indexes. So nominal GDP for each quarter would be much higher than 8.3% annualized. And then rate of increase in budget and GDP growth rate are not proportional or linear in relation to each other.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Do you have any source on how they come up with such a number ($216 billion)? It's more than 50% higher than the official budget, highly unlikely. While we don't have to trust the Chinese official defense budget completely, it's still more trustworthy than these western estimates/speculations. The psychology behind of inflating China's defense budget is similar to, although seemingly conflicting with, that of constantly deflating China's GDP growth rate (2, 3, 4% vs. 7%).

The defense budget number in any country may be different depending how you account some of the items, for example veteran' care and benefit, some R&D spending, and certain special provisions. It's the same in the US and other western countries.

Many of the western stock arguments and figures against China are very dubious at best; these include the $5 trillion trade goods through SCS, China's GDP growth rate, China's defense budget, China spends more on "stability maintenance" than on defense, etc., etc.

The SIPRI methodology for China is specifically described below

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China spending 2% of GDP on military spending is actually a reasonable figure, given that the other UN security council members all spend more. In the case of Russia or the USA, it is way more.
 

weig2000

Captain
The SIPRI methodology for China is specifically described below

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China spending 2% of GDP on military spending is actually a reasonable figure, given that the other UN security council members all spend more. In the case of Russia or the USA, it is way more.

How much should China spend on defense and how much does it actually spend are two separate matters. I've always stated that China's defense spending as percentage of GDP is quite, whether one uses China's own budget number or the western estimates such as SIPRI's.

SIPRI's estimates for China including items that are currently not in the official budget:

"The items outside the official defence budget that are included in the estimates are: (a) spending on the paramilitary People's Armed Police (PAP); (b) soldiers' demobilization and retirement payments from the Ministry of Civil Affairs; (c) subsidies to the arms industry; (d) additional military research and development (R&D) funding by civilian government ministries; (e) additional military construction expenses; (f) Chinese arms imports; and (g) residual military-owned enterprises. Professor Wang included one additional item, namely an estimate for PLA revenues from arms exports. However, to avoid the risk of double-counting, this item (which was a very small part of the total) has been removed."

It's debatable whether the above items should be part of the official defense budget. It depends on the national expenditure accounts of a country. It's complicated and not always clear cut. At a minimum, we can not say from the above items that China is deliberately hiding its defense spending.

And it's not just China. The US also has various defense-related spending that are not included in the official defense budget. This is from the
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:

"This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance, cleanup, and production, which are in the Atomic Energy Defense Activities section,
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, the Treasury Department's payments in pensions to military retirees and widows and their families, interest on debt incurred in past wars, or State Department financing of foreign arms sales and militarily-related development assistance. Neither does it include defense spending that is not military in nature, such as the
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, counter-terrorism spending by the
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, and intelligence-gathering spending by
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.
"

I'm using the US as an example, as I'm sure other countries have similar or different practice when it comes to accounting for their defense spending.
 
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