Z-10 thread

Black Shark said:

The entire Tailboom on every helicopter regardless of attack helicopter or civilian purposed have unarmored tails (tail boom). They are simply aluminium sheets, if explosion rips even a 30% hole in it, the integrity will be gone and the stress the tailrotor and torque of both main rotor aswell tailrotor shaft creates will rip it apart and helicopter aswell crew are lost.

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That's Worst Case, Blackhawks in Samali that took RPG's to the Tail lost control and crashed. But there were survivors and the Choppers hull was more or less intact.
Also Choppers like the Kamov or the Sikorsky Raider Coax don't need there tail booms for much more than flight control or in the case of Raider a speed boost.
I wonder how the Guidance system would react to a Coaxial rotor chopper or a Tiltrotor or tandem Rotor design. Most of the Worlds choppers are based on the Single Rotor with Tail rotor. but these alternitive forms are picking up in popularity.

schenkus said:

Would a continous-rod warhead be a good way to destroy rotor blades and/or the tailboom of a helicopter ?

The way I understand it, this kind of warhead creates an expanding circle that would hit the blades or the tail and should cut through them.

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Continoues rod warheads are pretty much death to any aircraft and especially when guided to center of the aircraft be it jet or helicopter, but such warheads are only available on SHORAD/SAM's not for MANPADS at least not i am aware off.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

That's Worst Case, Blackhawks in Samali that took RPG's to the Tail lost control and crashed. But there were survivors and the Choppers hull was more or less intact.
Also Choppers like the Kamov or the Sikorsky Raider Coax don't need there tail booms for much more than flight control or in the case of Raider a speed boost.
I wonder how the Guidance system would react to a Coaxial rotor chopper or a Tiltrotor or tandem Rotor design. Most of the Worlds choppers are based on the Single Rotor with Tail rotor. but these alternitive forms are picking up in popularity.

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The Blackhawk that was hit i could hit myself and i was never trained with RPG's, hell i would beg a 10 year old without training could hit it from 100m when the helicopter is hovering/starting with 20m altitude.

The guidance of what? MANPADS or SHORAD based radar guided missiles?

The IR spectrum of co-axial rotors is almost not recognizable for missile seekers like used in most MANPADS, the upper disc rotor gets much less of a heat treatment from the exhaust gasses compared to the lower so it becomes almost unrecognizable to missile seeker, but the lower disc rotor gets the exhaust gasses and heats up but should also recieve some cooling factor from the blow of the upper rotor disc, but haven't seen any research files to make such claim to have any weight on the IR spectrum whatsoever.

Radar guided missiles or overall radars will pick up co-axial or any object that has several rotors faster than conventional design with one big main rotor and a small rotor. That comes due to the design of rotors to have high amount of strong materials along with the entire rotor hub and how it is designed. The composite rotor blades today decrease to some minor degree the RCS of rotor blades but still they have their own RCS that is somehwat higher than normal helicopters if you only take into consideration the design of rotors themselfs and not fuselage, materials of fuselage or layout and aerodynamic shape of it. The Ka-50/52 have definitley a higher RCS due to rotors than a Ka-50 would have in a conventional design, how big it is i can't tell, so far haven't educated myself on how to calculate RCS of such objects in detail, but overall it is certainly in disadvantage.

Black Shark said:

Radar guided missiles or overall radars will pick up co-axial or any object that has several rotors faster than conventional design

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By this i trust you are referring to the overall speed of the aircraft and not that of the rotors themselves. Coaxial rotors because of there configuration have the advantage of a lower speed of rotation because they generate more lift.
the discussion was based on the claim that the TY90 hunts rotor blades on other choppers.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

By this i trust you are referring to the overall speed of the aircraft and not that of the rotors themselves. Coaxial rotors because of there configuration have the advantage of a lower speed of rotation because they generate more lift.
the discussion was based on the claim that the TY90 hunts rotor blades on other choppers.

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Well i haven't read anything yet about YT-90 or what kind of descrimination filter it has to achieve such ability to distinguish of IR parts of the object it is hunting. That sounds little bit more like a internet speculation rather than genuine information. The point that makes me believe that it is unlikely to be genuine information, is the fact that usually even modern IIR seekers tend to discriminate coolest and hottest part of the object and tend to hunt the hottest part which are always engines and by that atacking a crucial and vital part of the aircraft. To hunt rotors which have much smaller IR signature sounds unlikely, not impossible just unlikely because of the limited use by such very low payloads such missiles carry. Like i mentioned there were incidents in several places where MANPADS have been deployed that explosions around the rotor blades or right above the disc rotor had almost no effect other than damaging and creating vibrations. The job for MIC is to provide weapons for Militaries which have the most effect on target aiming to destroy it, not to gamble on small objects hit or non hit.

Might be the case that this is true but i highly doubt it, it just makes more sense to attack engine or tail shaft which are the most vital parts a MANPAD can hit and destroy.

Modern IRAAMs are able to specifically target non-heat emitting parts of planes, like the cockpit, so targeting the rotor blades isn't at all far fetched.

The air friction from the blades create more heat than the cockpit of a fighter, and many helicopters actively direct engine exhaust upwards into the rotor blades as a means to help rapidly mix and cool the waste gases. The side effect is to make the rotor blades extra shinny to a heat seeking missiles.

It is precisely because the TY90 has a small payload that targeting the rotor blades makes sense.

Most helicopters, and pretty much all attack helicopters currently in use that I can think of are dual engined. With the engines both heavily armoured and widely spaced.

It is quickly unlikely the warhead of a MANPAD or TY90 would have the kick to punch through the outer armour, an engine, the armoured patrician, and still retain enough energy to critically damage the other engine, even if you get the angle of impact spot on as to line both up to even have a shot to taking both out with one shot.

The missile should also not be just targeting any random bit of rotor, but the central rotor head, both to maximise the potential damage, and the chances of causing debilitating damage.

If the missile is designed to go for rotor blades, it would also stand to reason that the warhead is also designed with maximising rotor blades in mind.

As has already been mentioned, an expanding rod warhead, or specially designed variation of it, would make most sense, which stands the best chance to completely sever a struck blade (as opposed to just puncture it, as a fragmentation warhead would), while still having enough punch to stand a good chance of doing a good amount of damage if it misses the blades/rotor head and hits the engine below.

Coming right at you...

(2048x1560)

by78 said:

Coming right at you...

(2048x1560)

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What is that canister there instead of a missile?

Older HJ8/9 rather than the newer HJ10 probably.

plawolf said:

Older HJ8/9 rather than the newer HJ10 probably.

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Nah, it looks sort of like a flat cylinder and its overall length/radius proportions are completely wrong for HJ-8/9.
We also have never seen HJ-8/9 on Z-10s, and I somewhat doubt they will ever be integrated.

Looks to me like it could be some kind of telemetry or sensor equipment instead.

Could be this thing, whatever that is: