J-10 Thread IV

Hendrik_2000 · Dec 24, 2015

Schumacher said:
IF true, it seems CAC hasn't learnt its lesson from relying on Russian engines. Nothing magical about enhancing performance by sacrificing reliability & durability.
They can expect increasing crashes after about 5 years, this time with the much more expensive J10C air-frame & subsystems.

Well here is view from India another client of Sukhoi fighter which collaborate what you have said. The PLAAF better learn their lesson fast if they don't want to fly flying coffin and getting rid of their inferiority complex. WS 10 has now logged plenty of flying hour. So there is no reason not to equipped the new J10 with WS 10

India's Auditing Agency Punches Holes in Russian Sukhoi
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:13 p.m. EST December 21, 2015
635862822837458711-SU30MKI.jpg

(Photo: V.K. Singh/AFP via India's Ministry of Defence)
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NEW DELHI — Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow Dec. 24-25, India's autonomous auditing agency Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) says the Russian-made Su-30MKIaircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) suffer from poor serviceability, which is just around 55 percent to 60 percent against the prescribed norm of 75 percent.

The 218-page CAG report tabled in Indian Parliament Dec. 18 notes that the operational readiness of Su-30MKI was low due to high rate of AOG (Aircraft on Ground), low serviceability and less achievement in flying hours.

IAF official said the high rate of AOG means that out of 210 Su-30MKI with the IAF, around 115-126 aircraft are grounded for repairs and serviceability, which the officer said affects the combat Airworthiness.

The Su-30MKI suffers from technical problems in the fly-by-wire systems and radar warning receivers, the IAF official said.

The poor serviceability is mainly on account of lack of spares, which come from Russia. IAF has lost six Su-30MKI since it received the first batch in 2002.

India has so far ordered a total of 272 Su-30MKI which are license produced in India by state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). India originally received the standard Su-30MKI but later worked with the Russians to license produce the Su-30MKI with thrust vectoring engines.

"IAF has changed the maintenance drill of the Su-30MKI after finding that there are maintenance problems with the engine. So far, around 35 engine failures in the Su-30MKI have been noticed, including failures on account of power plant," another IAF official said.

Agreement on spares

India has been talking with Russia to set up production centers for spares in India for Su-30MKI.

India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar, during his November visit to Moscow discussed the possibility of setting up a joint venture between Russian and Indian domestic companies to produce spares for Su-30MKI and a final agreement could be announced during Modi's visit to Moscow, a Ministry of Defense official said.

Meanwhile, the producer of Sukhoi aircraft, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) of Russia, is also holding talks with other domestic companies, including the Tata group of industries, Reliance Infrastructure, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), and Bharat Forge on setting up a joint venture for manufacturing spares for the Sukhois, a Ministry of Defense source said.India's Auditing Agency Punches Holes in Russian Sukhoi
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:13 p.m. EST December 21, 2015
635862822837458711-SU30MKI.jpg

Franklin · Dec 25, 2015

Hendrik_2000 said:
Well here is view from India another client of Sukhoi fighter which collaborate what you have said. The PLAAF better learn their lesson fast if they don't want to fly flying coffin and getting rid of their inferiority complex. WS 10 has now logged plenty of flying hour. So there is no reason not to equipped the new J10 with WS 10

India's Auditing Agency Punches Holes in Russian Sukhoi
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:13 p.m. EST December 21, 2015
635862822837458711-SU30MKI.jpg

(Photo: V.K. Singh/AFP via India's Ministry of Defence)
CONNECTTWEET 70 LINKEDIN 8 COMMENTEMAILMORE

NEW DELHI — Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow Dec. 24-25, India's autonomous auditing agency Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) says the Russian-made Su-30MKIaircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) suffer from poor serviceability, which is just around 55 percent to 60 percent against the prescribed norm of 75 percent.

The 218-page CAG report tabled in Indian Parliament Dec. 18 notes that the operational readiness of Su-30MKI was low due to high rate of AOG (Aircraft on Ground), low serviceability and less achievement in flying hours.

IAF official said the high rate of AOG means that out of 210 Su-30MKI with the IAF, around 115-126 aircraft are grounded for repairs and serviceability, which the officer said affects the combat Airworthiness.

The Su-30MKI suffers from technical problems in the fly-by-wire systems and radar warning receivers, the IAF official said.

The poor serviceability is mainly on account of lack of spares, which come from Russia. IAF has lost six Su-30MKI since it received the first batch in 2002.

India has so far ordered a total of 272 Su-30MKI which are license produced in India by state owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). India originally received the standard Su-30MKI but later worked with the Russians to license produce the Su-30MKI with thrust vectoring engines.

"IAF has changed the maintenance drill of the Su-30MKI after finding that there are maintenance problems with the engine. So far, around 35 engine failures in the Su-30MKI have been noticed, including failures on account of power plant," another IAF official said.

Agreement on spares

India has been talking with Russia to set up production centers for spares in India for Su-30MKI.

India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar, during his November visit to Moscow discussed the possibility of setting up a joint venture between Russian and Indian domestic companies to produce spares for Su-30MKI and a final agreement could be announced during Modi's visit to Moscow, a Ministry of Defense official said.

Meanwhile, the producer of Sukhoi aircraft, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) of Russia, is also holding talks with other domestic companies, including the Tata group of industries, Reliance Infrastructure, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), and Bharat Forge on setting up a joint venture for manufacturing spares for the Sukhois, a Ministry of Defense source said.India's Auditing Agency Punches Holes in Russian Sukhoi
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:13 p.m. EST December 21, 2015
635862822837458711-SU30MKI.jpg

The Indians are using a special TVC version of the AL-31 while the Chinese are using a standard AL-31. I would presume that the standard AL-31 would be more reliable. India had several crashes of their twin engine SU-30MKI planes.

manqiangrexue · Dec 25, 2015

Franklin said:
The Indians are using a special TVC version of the AL-31 while the Chinese are using a standard AL-31. I would presume that the standard AL-31 would be more reliable. India had several crashes of their twin engine SU-30MKI planes.

Well, malfunctions in thrust vectoring wouldn't necessarily result in lost of power, and still, loss of power in both engines should be incredibly rare. I've heard that it has something to do with India's incredibly hot and humid climate in which they are stored and India's maintenance practices.

Schumacher · Dec 26, 2015

Hendrik_2000 said:
Well here is view from India another client of Sukhoi fighter which collaborate what you have said. The PLAAF better learn their lesson fast if they don't want to fly flying coffin and getting rid of their inferiority complex. WS 10 has now logged plenty of flying hour. So there is no reason not to equipped the new J10 with WS 10

India's Auditing Agency Punches Holes in Russian Sukhoi
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 3:13 p.m. EST December 21, 2015
635862822837458711-SU30MKI.jpg

(Photo: V.K. Singh/AFP via India's Ministry of Defence)
CONNECTTWEET 70 LINKEDIN 8 COMMENTEMAILMORE

NEW DELHI — Ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow Dec. 24-25, India's autonomous auditing agency Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) says the Russian-made Su-30MKIaircraft with the Indian Air Force (IAF) suffer from poor serviceability, which is just around 55 percent to 60 percent against the prescribed norm of 75 percent............

Thanks for bringing up the IAF Su30 with AL31, the performance is horrendous. PLA had numerous crashes with Russian Flankers too compared to J11 with WS10.
This should put to rest those who say 'but but but ..... WS10 is used on twin engined J11 while J10 is single engined.'
Next, they'll go 'but but but ..... IAF are no good at maintenance' or 'but but but ...... India is hot & humid.'

manqiangrexue · Dec 26, 2015

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An article about MKI's crashes, for those who can read. For those who can't read or reason, keep it simple; crash=bad engine, less crash=good engine. Broken logic = beat with rock until good logic. Too complicated = scream at it until becomes simple LOL

Blitzo · Dec 26, 2015

manqiangrexue said:
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An article about MKI's crashes, for those who can read. For those who can't read or reason, keep it simple; crash=bad engine, less crash=good engine. Broken logic = beat with rock until good logic. LOL

It's not bad for information about why the MKIs crashed in those recent instances, but it's got quite a... slanted opinion for much of the rest of the article.

manqiangrexue · Dec 26, 2015

Bltizo said:
It's not bad for information about why the MKIs crashed in those recent instances, but it's got quite a... slanted opinion for much of the rest of the article.

The important information is that 5 out of 6 crashes were not related to engines (mostly fly-by-wire issues) and the cause of the last crash is unknown. If there were 6 double flame-outs, that's BAD, but there's no evidence of any. Then, there's the figure that in the last 2 years, there were 35 engine failures in India's MKI. India has 220 MKI, for 440 engines. China has about 300 J-10 so 300 engines. Assuming a similar training frequency, then China should have experienced about 2/3rds of the engine failures in J-10 (440 engines versus 300), which is 24 engine failures on J-10 in the last 2 years. Have there been nearly 24 J-10 crashes in the last 2 years? Or does the IAF train 5-6 times harder? Well, then other than factors related to maintenance or climate, what else would explain this disparity?

I'd like to compare Flanker to Flanker but I don't see any figures for how many AL-31 malfunctions there were in the past 2 years for SinoFlankers.

Blitzo · Dec 26, 2015

manqiangrexue said:
The important information is that 5 out of 6 crashes were not related to engines (mostly fly-by-wire issues) and the cause of the last crash is unknown. If there were 6 double flame-outs, that's BAD, but there's no evidence of any. Then, there's the figure that in the last 2 years, there were 35 engine failures in India's MKI. India has 220 MKI, for 440 engines. China has about 300 J-10 so 300 engines. Assuming a similar training frequency, then China should have experienced about 2/3rds of the engine failures in J-10 (440 engines versus 300), which is 24 engine failures on J-10 in the last 2 years. Have there been nearly 24 J-10 crashes in the last 2 years? Or does the IAF train 5-6 times harder? Well, then other than factors related to maintenance or climate, what else would explain this disparity?

I'd like to compare Flanker to Flanker but I don't see any figures for how many AL-31 malfunctions there were in the past 2 years for SinoFlankers.

Yep no disagreements there.

Schumacher · Dec 26, 2015

manqiangrexue said:
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An article about MKI's crashes, for those who can read. For those who can't read or reason, keep it simple; crash=bad engine, less crash=good engine. Broken logic = beat with rock until good logic. Too complicated = scream at it until becomes simple LOL

Oh great, so not only is AL31 of suspect quality, many other Russian parts & subsystems on Flankers are as well, each of which contributed to the crashes & groundings.
I always say if only Russian arms makers find engineering issues & fixing them as well as finding excuses, they'll be ahead of China if not the west by now.

siegecrossbow · Dec 26, 2015

Culprit of the recent naval J-10S crash - bird strike!

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Picture of the pilots

J-10 Thread IV

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General

Franklin

Captain

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Schumacher

Senior Member

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

Schumacher

Senior Member

siegecrossbow

General