Chinese purchase of Su-35

tphuang

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my respect to you, i read the beginning of this thread and you were the only one with a cool unbiased view, in fact you said that the deal was very likely true in 2012
Thanks for that, not sure i can really say I have unbiased view. I was actually against the deal but the Chinese sources seemed to indicate at the time the PLAAF interests was real for Su-35 and it was just a matter of working out the details. Again, I think we will have to wait and see the configurations when they get delivered. More details will come out.
 

b787

Captain
Thanks for that, not sure i can really say I have unbiased view. I was actually against the deal but the Chinese sources seemed to indicate at the time the PLAAF interests was real for Su-35 and it was just a matter of working out the details. Again, I think we will have to wait and see the configurations when they get delivered. More details will come out.
it is just an aircraft, i know for some posters it is a tragedy, i do not see it like that, it is just an airplane and in 10 yrs or 20 yrs it will be obsolete and new aircraft will replace it, in both China and Russia.
But in terms of aesthetics i like it, and now is one of the best aircraft available

A Russian SU-35 is displayed during the MAKS-2013 international aviation and space show in the city of Zhukovsky near Moscow, Russia, Aug. 27, 2013. (Xinhua file photo/Jia Yuchen)







BEIJING, Nov. 26 (Xinhua) -- China confirmed a deal to buy Su-35 fighter jets from Russia on Thursday.



"The Su-35 fighter jet project is one of the areas in which China and Russia are willing to cooperate," said Chinese Defense Ministry spokesman Wu Qian in response to a question about the 2-billion-dollar deal.



The two countries will continue to enhance cooperation in military technology based on equality and mutual benefit, Wu said at a monthly press briefing.



While commenting on another question about Russia's plan to provide the first round of S-400 modern anti-aircraft missile systems to China within the next 12 to 18 months, Wu said cooperation is under way according to plans.



Air defense is an important part of China-Russia military technology cooperation, the spokesman added.
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b787

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Thanks for that, not sure i can really say I have unbiased view. I was actually against the deal but the Chinese sources seemed to indicate at the time the PLAAF interests was real for Su-35 and it was just a matter of working out the details. Again, I think we will have to wait and see the configurations when they get delivered. More details will come out.
and yes you were accurate and cool my respects to you :)
 

Blitzo

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Okay, now that this purchase is finally confirmed by the Chinese side, I'll offer my own 2 cents on the matter...

I think this purchase of an interestingly small number of jets is being driven by a number of potential causes, all of which should be considered in conjunction with each other, and all of which may be partially true, but none of which can independently explain the purchase, and none of the reasons below should be interpreted in isolation from each other.
  1. China's desire for additional fighter aircraft: this reason is simple, China's combat aircraft fleet is still undergoing modernization, and it still needs more 4th generation fighters. A purchase of 24 Su-35s will go to help supplement SAC flanker production, especially as SAC seems to be shifting gear to ramp up J-16 and J-15 production, as well as developing more advanced J-11D variants and a CATOBAR J-15 variant. The purchase of Su-35 may thus be to offset a potential slight decline in flanker numbers within the air force... and Su-35s are still capable, advanced Flankers.
  2. Geopolitics: with the greater strategic cooperation between Russia and China, a purchase of some fighter jets that would be mutually beneficial is a nice way to further seal the partnership between both nations.
  3. Foundation for greater defence cooperation: if China is indeed able to fit their Su-35s with indigenous avionics and weapons, this may pave the way for greater cooperation in some other domains.
  4. Chinese interest in assessing latest Russian technology: this reason is quite simple but easy to misinterpret. China may be interested in getting a look at just what the latest fighter technology the Russian export sector is willing to sell. It may well be that the latest and upcoming Chinese fighters are as advanced or significantly more advanced than what is on Su-35s, but it would be prudent for China to also be interested in assessing what quirks a foreign nation's advanced fighter may field and whether China's own industry could benefit from an in depth look. With this reason I'm not suggesting China would want to reverse engineer Su-35, nor am I suggesting that China would even seek to reverse engineer any specific subsystems on Su-35, more that China may be interested in certain specific potential characteristics of the aircraft or its subsystems that may or may not in turn influence certain indigenous products.
  5. "Unique" capabilities of Su-35: let's be frank here, the Su-35 is qualitatively a better fighter than any fighter China currently has in its arsenal in FOC... but that degree of qualitative superiority is not very large, and upcoming Chinese 4+ generation fighters will also likely feature advancements that push them beyond certain capabilities that Su-35 may have. More importantly, the Chinese fighter fleet is also now made up of so many other 4th generation aircraft with supporting AEW&C and EW/ECM and other force multiplier aircraft, that the addition of only 24 Su-35s is not going to significantly enhance the capabilities of the Chinese fighter fleet. But what the Su-35 does offer is some fresh blood in terms of some unique capabilities that the Chinese fighter fleet will not have for the foreseeable future, such as TVC and new aerodynamic characteristics, as well as offering new EW characteristics (if equipped with Russian systems). Therefore 24 Su-35s may make very useful opfor aircraft for DACT.
  6. Engines... possibly: this is a bit more of a tinfoil hat reason, and suggests that China really wanted the Su-35s to access their 117S engines to power initial J-20s. Russia naturally may not have wanted to sell the 117S engines alone, and insisted on pairing them with a purchase of Su-35s, and China may have agreed to it. This could explain the relatively large price for only 24 Su-35s, as that price may include a substantial number of "replacement" 117S engines for the Su-35s. Fortunately, this theory can be proven quite easily in coming years -- if initial J-20s are indeed powered by 117S then we can confirm that this was likely a significant reason for the purchase of the 24 Su-35s.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
the Irbis is not the most advanced radar Russia has it is only very cheap and very powerful, its oscillator is powerful enough to out range most radars in the world, very likely the longest range in any fighter now

this is one of the most advanced AESA radar in the world, it is the FGA-35 for MiG-35.........
Like I always said, there's the Russian sales team's world and the real world. In the real world, the Mig35 with 'one of the most advanced AESA' was eliminated in the very first round of the Indian contest, losing even to F16 and Gripen. :)
 

b787

Captain

  1. "Unique" capabilities of Su-35: let's be frank here, the Su-35 is qualitatively a better fighter than any fighter China currently has in its arsenal in FOC... but that degree of qualitative superiority is not very large, and upcoming Chinese 4+ generation fighters will also likely feature advancements that push them beyond certain capabilities that Su-35 may have. More importantly, the Chinese fighter fleet is also now made up of so many other 4th generation aircraft with supporting AEW&C and EW/ECM and other force multiplier aircraft, that the addition of only 24 Su-35s is not going to significantly enhance the capabilities of the Chinese fighter fleet. But what the Su-35 does offer is some fresh blood in terms of some unique capabilities that the Chinese fighter fleet will not have for the foreseeable future, such as TVC and new aerodynamic characteristics, as well as offering new EW characteristics (if equipped with Russian systems). Therefore 24 Su-35s may make very useful opfor aircraft for DACT.
  2. Engines... possibly: this is a bit more of a tinfoil hat reason, and suggests that China really wanted the Su-35s to access their 117S engines to power initial J-20s. Russia naturally may not have wanted to sell the 117S engines alone, and insisted on pairing them with a purchase of Su-35s, and China may have agreed to it. This could explain the relatively large price for only 24 Su-35s, as that price may include a substantial number of "replacement" 117S engines for the Su-35s. Fortunately, this theory can be proven quite easily in coming years -- if initial J-20s are indeed powered by 117S then we can confirm that this was likely a significant reason for the purchase of the 24 Su-35s.

Russia is selling China high performance aircraft as an answer to America’s actions around Asia, Conn Hallinan from Foreign Policy in Focus, told RT.
Beijing has signed a deal with Moscow for Sukhoi fighter jets. China will buy 24 cutting-edge SU-35s. China is the first foreign sale of the multipurpose aircraft.

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RT: Officials from Beijing were first shown the fighter jet seven years ago at an air show in China. What do you think is behind the timing of the decision to buy these planes?

Dr. Conn Hallinnan: Well, it is not exactly the same fighter jet. They took the old Su-35, which I believe the NATO designation was Flanker, and they essentially redesigned it. So it is faster, it has got longer range, more capabilities and can carry more ordinance, etc. I think it is very much a kind of an answer…

President Obama was in Asia recently, and he announced $250 million to various countries in South East Asia: Indonesia, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia to buy and get American military hardware. And I think that the announcement of this sale is sort of the counter. In other words, if you give all the stuff to your potential allies, then what we’re doing is giving one of our high performance aircraft - interceptors and fighter bombers - to China. It’s sort of an answer to the US F-35 moving to Asia and the SU-35 is a good match for the F-35.

RT: What message could this send to China's rivals in the region, particularly Japan?

Dr. CH: I think that Japan yes, but I also think there is South Korean, there is Australia. What is happening here is the Chinese have been pushing very hard in the South China Sea, a little too hard in my opinion; I think they’ve stirred up unnecessary antagonism. But what they are responding to… is the fact that they look around, and what they see is that from India to South Korea and Japan the US has ringed them with potential adversaries. And this purchase of the Sukhoi is an answer to that. The SU-35 is better than anything right now in the Chinese air force. It is faster than the F-35, and it has got greater range than the F-35; it’s more flexible in terms of what it can do; it doesn’t have stealth capacity, but stealth capacity is overrated in any case.

RT: As you said Washington is planning to boost its presence in the Asia-Pacific with the latest generation of aircraft and warships within the next few years. What reaction can we expect from the US now?

Dr. CH: I suspect what you are going to see is a sort of a pushback. I think that Russia is in part doing that in Syria, and I think the Chinese are doing it in the South China Sea, and to a certain extent in South Asia... The US has been pushing, and I think you’re going to see the Russians and the Chinese begin to push back a little bit more. We hope, of course, this doesn’t get into a serious phase. I’m always nervous when you have high-performance aircraft that have the potential to start an incident

What this very much is is China and Russia’s answer to the past two decades: NATO moving Eastward, the Georgia war, the Yugoslav war, the attempt at a Ukraine coup, an attempt to overthrow the Assad regime in Syria, and at the same time a lot of US pressure in the Philippines, Japan, Vietnam, etc. sort of bumping up against the Chinese. What you seeing here is a kind of a worldwide picture – it is not really derestricted to the Asian Pacific region.

RT: We also know that China is developing its own fifth-generation fighter jet, the Chengdu J-20. Do you expect the country to continue to buy Russian military hardware in the future, or they will go with their own?

Dr. CH: I think it is actually in the interest of the Chinese to do so. In other words, the Chinese are developing their own aircraft, but the SU-35 is a relatively inexpensive airplane – it is only something like $63-65 million apiece. You compare that to something like the F-35 which is between $98 million and about $110 million apiece. It is a pretty good deal for China. Also China is putting a lot of their resources at this point into their maritime forces and they are expensive. So if you can get an airplane that is a solid airplane, easy to maintain, has good capabilities for pretty much bargain basement prices it’d be silly not to take it.


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Blitzo

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RT article

I don't understand, why are you replying to my post with a quote from RT?

Nothing in the interview disagrees with what I said....

For instance, I also said
let's be frank here, the Su-35 is qualitatively a better fighter than any fighter China currently has in its arsenal in FOC
 

b787

Captain
Like I always said, there's the Russian sales team's world and the real world. In the real world, the Mig35 with 'one of the most advanced AESA' was eliminated in the very first round of the Indian contest, losing even to F16 and Gripen. :)
Russia has more advanced Radars than FGA-35
here one by NIIPP Tomks.

Irbis in only used to cheapen the Su-35 and expedite its operational capability

You are looking at the flat AESA technology by NIIPP Tomsk
syWWhib.jpg



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By many indicators, Irbis is superior to most foreign radars with passive and active phased array antennas. With this radar system, the Su-35 can detect targets at ranges up to 400 km, track up to 30 air targets at once, and simultaneously fire on eight of them.
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b787

Captain
I don't understand, why are you replying to my post with a quote from RT?

Nothing in the interview disagrees with what I said....

For instance, I also said
it is more related to longer loiter time during CAP. its cruising speed is supersonic, carries more fuel and has more range at a relatively cheap price
 
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