PLAN Naval Aviation Training Facility

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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They start off with the carrier in the middle for maximum safety, but once they have been through all the training, I think it is less of a transition, and thus safer, for the pilots to practice landing on a carrier sized deck on land, knowing there is no more runway in front of it to bail them out.

In addition, it will be very different the first time they try to land on that simulated carrier deck at the end of the runway, compared to those in the middle of the runway, both visually and mentally, and that is precisely why there is value in doing that.

It is infinitely better for pilots to get virgin nerves and mess up there compared to if the same thing happened when they are trying to land on a carrier for real.

The thing is, I think that by the time the pilots should start to be "tested", they would be ready to begin touch and goes on an actual carrier to start to build up their confidence, whereas an angled land simulated runway without any tarmac beyond the simulated flight deck would offer little additional benefit to a pilot. It actually present more risks to the pilot and the aircraft, as doing a bolter on land at the end of a runway is much riskier than doing a bolter on an aircraft carrier when an overshoot of the carrier flight deck means there is nothing but air around them (and ocean many meters below such that it can be dismissed as a dangerous factor) so they can perform a safe recovery easier (and more importantly, most poor recoveries would not result in danger to the aircraft), rather than solid hard ground which may be directly on the same level as the simulated runway or at best a few meters lower, where even slightly poor recoveries can result in crashing the plane into the ground.

In other words, I actually think it's safer for pilots to mess up on a carrier than on a land based simulation at the end of a runway.

Given that the Shore Based Test Facilities for other navies with similar infrastructure all have simulated carrier runways in the middle of (and parallel to) main runways, I think there must be a reason why those are the chosen preferences... and I think the limited benefit and the great risk from having a runway at the end of a runway on land probably explains it.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
The thing is, I think that by the time the pilots should start to be "tested", they would be ready to begin touch and goes on an actual carrier to start to build up their confidence, whereas an angled land simulated runway without any tarmac beyond the simulated flight deck would offer little additional benefit to a pilot. It actually present more risks to the pilot and the aircraft, as doing a bolter on land at the end of a runway is much riskier than doing a bolter on an aircraft carrier when an overshoot of the carrier flight deck means there is nothing but air around them (and ocean many meters below such that it can be dismissed as a dangerous factor) so they can perform a safe recovery easier (and more importantly, most poor recoveries would not result in danger to the aircraft), rather than solid hard ground which may be directly on the same level as the simulated runway or at best a few meters lower, where even slightly poor recoveries can result in crashing the plane into the ground.

In other words, I actually think it's safer for pilots to mess up on a carrier than on a land based simulation at the end of a runway.

Given that the Shore Based Test Facilities for other navies with similar infrastructure all have simulated carrier runways in the middle of (and parallel to) main runways, I think there must be a reason why those are the chosen preferences... and I think the limited benefit and the great risk from having a runway at the end of a runway on land probably explains it.

Firstly, just because there isn't tarmac doesn't mean the plane will suddenly be destroyed if any of it wheels touches anything other than the simulated carrier.

As I said before, the land around, and especially in front the simulated carrier is almost certain to have been treated to allow planes to land safely on. That is also why the simulated carrier is a little offset compared to the runway, so that anyone attempting to line up and land on the angled deck would actually end up following the runway.

Secondly, as you said, the pilots should almost to ready to start landing on a real carrier by the time they are progressed to this simulator, so I seriously doubt any of them would miss the target by such a wide margin as to potentially barely, or not even touch the carrier deck (and even in such extreme cases, they should be trained well enough to know they should be waving off rather than trying to press on with a landing if they are hopelessly out of position).

But if someone does manage to mess it up so spectacularly, it would reinforce the benefit of this simulator over the real thing.

With the simulator, you are going to have maybe another several hundred metres of runway grade prepared ground for the plane to use to gain speed for lift off again.

On a carrier, you would be in the drink if you messed up so badly.

In effect, the biggest difference between the simulator and the ones in the middle of the runway would be the colour of the runway in front of the simulator. You will have pretty much the same margins for error (although the instructors will probably not tell the pilots that to help them get the most out if it).

But the time the pilots are trying this, their technical skills should be flawless, so its mostly the mental and psychological training they will be focusing on for this.

As for why other navies don't do this, well that is because other navies are either far more advanced in terms of their carrier operational training and training equipment, or don't have the budget for such luxuries.

For the likes of the USN and French navy, they already have a pool of well trained and experienced carrier pilots with dedicated twin seat trainers.

As far as I am aware, USN greenhorns experience their first few traps in trainers with an experienced veteran pilot in the back seat. My memory is a little fuzzy here so I may be wrong, but I remember that for the first few traps, they are pretty much just along for the ride, with the instructor doing the landing to give them a first taste of what it feels like to land on a carrier.

The PLAN cannot do this yet, so it makes sense for them to give their pilots additional land based training, since when they try landing on a carrier for the first time, they will be riding solo with no one on hand to help or take over if things get too tough.
 

Intrepid

Major
It is unprofessional to locate the training carrier deck at the end of a runway and I can not believe, Chinese people do that. Over and out.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It is unprofessional to locate the training carrier deck at the end of a runway and I can not believe, Chinese people do that. Over and out.

Just because others don't do it that way does not make it "unprofessional". The west does not have a monopoly on what is professional.

With no offence intended, but I think the west often have a peculiar mentality when it comes to China.

If China does something similar to how the west does it, the Chinese are copycats. If China does something differently, they are unprofessional and don't know what they are doing because they are not following exactly in the footsteps of the west.
 

lcloo

Captain
How are we so sure there is not a 20 meter deep depression dug out at the end of the "carrier runway"? For both safety and simulation of height between carrier top deck and sea?

And I don't see a main run way directly behind the "carrier runway", it is a large rectangular area, yes, but is it really a runway? The ground color just don't looked right.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
How are we so sure there is not a 20 meter deep depression dug out at the end of the "carrier runway"? For both safety and simulation of height between carrier top deck and sea?

And I don't see a main run way directly behind the "carrier runway", it is a large rectangular area, yes, but is it really a runway? The ground color just don't looked right.

That will make it far riskier.

With essentially a flat bit of clear land in front, if a plane overshot, it can just keep taxiing down an essentially untarmaced runway for a few hundred meters until it can either take off again, or come to a stop.

With a 20 meter ditch, if the plane overshot and doesn't have enough airspeed and thrust to get back in the air before it falls 20m (which doesn't take much time at all), you got yourself a giant fireball, destroyed plane and dead pilot.
 

lcloo

Captain
OK, you do have the point there. But this photo does showed a dug out depression of not less than 20 meters deep, using the trucks on the ground as reference.
J-15 NATB - Huangdicun - catapult u.c. maybe - 2.jpg

And look at the third picture again, I thought that looked familiar, so I checked the photo of Aussie aircraft carrier, ex-HMAS Canberra, (or is it HMAS Melbourne?), seen to match perfectly, so the question now is where is location of this picture?
R21practiceDeckChinaSatPhotoAGEed.jpg Melbourne_Quickmatch_301029.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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Firstly, just because there isn't tarmac doesn't mean the plane will suddenly be destroyed if any of it wheels touches anything other than the simulated carrier.

As I said before, the land around, and especially in front the simulated carrier is almost certain to have been treated to allow planes to land safely on. That is also why the simulated carrier is a little offset compared to the runway, so that anyone attempting to line up and land on the angled deck would actually end up following the runway.

Secondly, as you said, the pilots should almost to ready to start landing on a real carrier by the time they are progressed to this simulator, so I seriously doubt any of them would miss the target by such a wide margin as to potentially barely, or not even touch the carrier deck (and even in such extreme cases, they should be trained well enough to know they should be waving off rather than trying to press on with a landing if they are hopelessly out of position).

But if someone does manage to mess it up so spectacularly, it would reinforce the benefit of this simulator over the real thing.

With the simulator, you are going to have maybe another several hundred metres of runway grade prepared ground for the plane to use to gain speed for lift off again.

On a carrier, you would be in the drink if you messed up so badly.

The way I see it, by the point that the pilot is able to graduate from the land based training facility, "missing" the runway is not so much a problem as doing a bolter where they land on the runway, but miss the wire, and have to take off again and recover.
For such a maneuvre, the aircraft will not immediately start to gain altitude and may even maintain the same altitude or even drop slightly compared to the carrier's runway.
On an actual carrier, overshooting the landing strip during a bolter is no biggie, because the ocean below the aircraft is many meters away and is more than enough for the aircraft to gain additional altitude and recover.
On a simulated landing strip in the middle of a main runway, overshooting the simulated landing strip also is no biggie, because even if the aircraft overshoots the simulated runway on a bolter and is not able to gain altitude as immediately quickly, it has a nice expanse of safe tarmac in front of the simulated landing strip to begin with, which the aircraft' landing gear can tolerate.

But sure, conceivably they could potentially still put the simulated landing strip on the end of the actual runway and put in enough changes to the surrounding environment such that the risk of the aircraft overshooting the simulated landing strip and coming into contact with hard earth is minimized or nonexistant, but what additional benefits does it bring to a pilot's training which cannot be achieved by beginning to do fly overs and touch and goes on a real aircraft carrier?


In effect, the biggest difference between the simulator and the ones in the middle of the runway would be the colour of the runway in front of the simulator. You will have pretty much the same margins for error (although the instructors will probably not tell the pilots that to help them get the most out if it).

But the time the pilots are trying this, their technical skills should be flawless, so its mostly the mental and psychological training they will be focusing on for this.

As for why other navies don't do this, well that is because other navies are either far more advanced in terms of their carrier operational training and training equipment, or don't have the budget for such luxuries.

For the likes of the USN and French navy, they already have a pool of well trained and experienced carrier pilots with dedicated twin seat trainers.

As far as I am aware, USN greenhorns experience their first few traps in trainers with an experienced veteran pilot in the back seat. My memory is a little fuzzy here so I may be wrong, but I remember that for the first few traps, they are pretty much just along for the ride, with the instructor doing the landing to give them a first taste of what it feels like to land on a carrier.

The PLAN cannot do this yet, so it makes sense for them to give their pilots additional land based training, since when they try landing on a carrier for the first time, they will be riding solo with no one on hand to help or take over if things get too tough.

But doing so on a land based simulator where the runway ends produces no additional benefit and more risk, compared to simply having the pilot start to practice fly overs and touch and goes on the real carrier instead.

Also, I should repeat that this supposed picture of a simulated flight deck is clearly meant to be reminiscent of the HMAS Melbourne... in other words, even if it was real, it clearly was meant to be part of a much earlier part of the Chinese carrier programme, and the fact that their current carrier programme has made them graduate to a newer arrangement for their shore based flight test facilities makes me think they've reached a logical conclusion as to what the most effective and safest training facilities for their pilots would be.


Just because others don't do it that way does not make it "unprofessional". The west does not have a monopoly on what is professional.

With no offence intended, but I think the west often have a peculiar mentality when it comes to China.

If China does something similar to how the west does it, the Chinese are copycats. If China does something differently, they are unprofessional and don't know what they are doing because they are not following exactly in the footsteps of the west.

Err I think unprofessional is the wrong word here, but illogical would certainly be correct in this case. If the Chinese Navy really does have such a set up for their shore based training facility, I would be as confused as if I saw the army starting to drive around in trucks with square wheels.

I wouldn't be so quick as to jump to racism or cultural bigotry in this case.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
OK, you do have the point there. But this photo does showed a dug out depression of not less than 20 meters deep, using the trucks on the ground as reference.
View attachment 19919

Those are completely different photos -- the google earth photo of the facility does not show any kind of similar simulated landing strip on the end of a runway, meaning it is very unlikely that the dug out depressions are for anything similar to what has been suggested.

In fact it looks like they're installing something underground (speculated to be structures for catapults), rather than digging up earth to produce a depression.


And look at the third picture again, I thought that looked familiar, so I checked the photo of Aussie aircraft carrier, ex-HMAS Canberra, (or is it HMAS Melbourne?), seen to match perfectly, so the question now is where is location of this picture?
View attachment 19917 View attachment 19918

Yes, as I said before, it most definitely is meant to be representative of the HMAS melbourne

thats my question: where is the location?
Over and out

I'm not sure where the photo is from, but a reverse google image search produces this:
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...(Satellite image of the reconstructed Melbourne flight deck attached to the end of a runway in northern China. The angled flight deck centerline is aligned with the main runway and aircraft were catapulted out over the salt pan and bay)...

Unfortunately, that does not tell us whether the original photo was even real or not. I then went to the updated site from which the photo was hosted, and it does no longer have the photo, although the description still exists.
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My speculation, is that it may be possible that the photo itself was doctored all those years ago, possibly by a fanboy/troll, and it was picked up as legitimate by an English speaking site, who then went for their own independent search of whether such a place actually existed, came up empty handed, and concluded that the picture itself most likely was fake, but maintained the possible rumour of the site just to keep bases covered.
 
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