Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

Zool

Zool

Junior Member
Bltizo said:
It's a relatively informative article, but like I said over on CDF, it's unfortunate that he doesn't differentiate between 3M-54E (the MTCR export version of the missile which has a range of only 280km) and the domestic 3M-54 has a range said to be 400-660km (likely depending on flight profile).... so in that sense, if YJ-18 were indeed smaller than 3M-54, its maximum range of 550km is actually quite sensible.
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That is true, but in respect to how many SLCM's can effectively be carried and fired in salvo large enough to overwhelm the opponents ADS, I think the conclusions still hold weight. VLS makes SLCM a much more potent threat; not to say that SLCM has no benefit or threat when launched from torpedo tube.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Zool said:
That is true, but in respect to how many SLCM's can effectively be carried and fired in salvo large enough to overwhelm the opponents ADS, I think the conclusions still hold weight. VLS makes SLCM a much more potent threat; not to say that SLCM has no benefit or threat when launched from torpedo tube.
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I have no problem with the other claims he makes, the only thing I think he gets wrong is his logic and take on YJ-18's range.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
Zool said:
That is true, but in respect to how many SLCM's can effectively be carried and fired in salvo large enough to overwhelm the opponents ADS, I think the conclusions still hold weight. VLS makes SLCM a much more potent threat; not to say that SLCM has no benefit or threat when launched from torpedo tube.
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On that, i think the author reflect certain bias from his USN background. USN has withdrawn the sub launched Harpoon from service. That could be because USN submarine skippers are confident in the acoustic performance of their submarine to silently approach an enemy close enough for a torpedo shot. or the perception may be that a torpedo attack is less likely to reveal the sub's position than a missile attack. Other navies may not share this doctrine, and may prefer to take a missile shot even if it is less likely to get a kill.
another point is that last year Zhuhai airshow reveal the existence of a Chinese turbojet powered sub launched missile with a 128km range. that seems to contradict Capt. Carlson's assertion is his earlier article (also excellent btw) that China is unlikely to develop a longer ranged turbojet powered torpedo tube launched missile.
but overall, Capt. Carlson's article is very high quality. especially his main point that Yuan is not a specialized coastal submarine intended mainly to perform missile attacks.
 
Zool

Zool

Junior Member
shen said:
On that, i think the author reflect certain bias from his USN background. USN has withdrawn the sub launched Harpoon from service. That could be because USN submarine skippers are confident in the acoustic performance of their submarine to silently approach an enemy close enough for a torpedo shot. or the perception may be that a torpedo attack is less likely to reveal the sub's position than a missile attack. Other navies may not share this doctrine, and may prefer to take a missile shot even if it is less likely to get a kill.
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I don't want to get too far OT from the Yuan itself, but in the case of the USN they have not forgone SLCM's as in your example of Harpoon, but instead standardized around new model Tomahawks, also now used in the role of anti-ship attack (along with SM) for surface combatants. This will all again be standardized around the LRASM once complete.

Bias is probably not the word -- I would say the Captain speaks from his experience with USN platform capabilities and war fighting SOP's. In instances where VLS is not available for a salvo launch and a sub is relatively advanced in it's signals management and use of the local waters to mask its presence, a torpedo attack probably would be the optimal tactic. I think even more so when speaking of an AIP boat like Yuan, which when running on batteries should give any SSN a run for it's money when it comes to noise.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Zool said:
A very interesting read - analysis of the Yuan by a former USN officer who is critical of prior evaluations based on questionable data.

Part I:
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I will not divulge names...but the author posts here on SD.

All of his articles and analysis are spot on, and he is meticulous in his analysis. He would not make the mistake of slanting his analysis of foreign boats based on his own experience with US platforms in the least...I guarantee you that this is true.
 
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SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Zool said:
Part III:
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Label me a skeptic, but...

1. How does the author know what kind of naval weaponry the Yuan carries? There are two submarine launched variants of the YJ-82 (the newer of which was unveiled during the 2014 Zhuhai Airshow); how does he know the ranges of these systems?

2. How does the author know the size and specifications of the YJ-18? From what I can reasonably deduce, he obtained those numbers (including the 220 km range) from the Deagel.com website (which is known for its blaring inaccuracies). We have not one clear photograph of the YJ-18 yet.
 
shen

shen

Senior Member
Zool said:
I don't want to get too far OT from the Yuan itself, but in the case of the USN they have not forgone SLCM's as in your example of Harpoon, but instead standardized around new model Tomahawks, also now used in the role of anti-ship attack (along with SM) for surface combatants. This will all again be standardized around the LRASM once complete.

Bias is probably not the word -- I would say the Captain speaks from his experience with USN platform capabilities and war fighting SOP's. In instances where VLS is not available for a salvo launch and a sub is relatively advanced in it's signals management and use of the local waters to mask its presence, a torpedo attack probably would be the optimal tactic. I think even more so when speaking of an AIP boat like Yuan, which when running on batteries should give any SSN a run for it's money when it comes to noise.
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I agree that bias is probably the wrong word. It wasn't intended as disrespect is any case.

However, if Capt. Carlson is reading and posting to this forum, perhaps he can address the two outstanding issues raised about his articles.

1) His lower rang estimation for YJ-18.
2) Chinese language websites point to the existence of a torpedo tube launched turbojet powered missile with the designation of YJ-84 with a range of around 120km. That seems to be confirmed by the revelation of an export variant with the designation of CM-708UNA in last year's Zhuhai Airshow.

His expertise would be most welcomed to help clarify these issues.
 
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