China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

b787

Captain
That is economic and business competition, not political ideology that brought foreign companies to influence the decision of the Mexican govt.
yes you are correct, it is business, i do not deny it, in Argentina is the same, if China does not allow Argentina for a fair trade, voices within the opposition will simply say, the base is not a good idea, why? simply we buy more Chinese goods and they buy less and only natural resources, plus the base makes us trouble with NATO, this is what the western countries will use, in Mexico, has been the opposition linked to Bombardier and the dislike for the corruption in the government that stalled the deal
 

shen

Senior Member
The president is super corrupt, every one knows that in Mexico, he was cleared of corruption by a judge he appointed him self, will Mexico get the high speed train, well i can i sure you, we will, but i will say the Chinese did win the bidding but remember we are North Americans and as such the government gives preference to North american firms, but it was not the only Chinese company that was affected in Mexico, Dragon mart was another





In the case of Mexico, China has more difficulties, because as a North American nation, we have our economy more linked to the USA, and wall mart is in Mexico well positioned, in Argentina and Brazil, since they are south Americans, usually they have less american economic links.

The base in Neuquen, might remain there for decades, but believe me it will be very important to remain there that China and Argentina have a well developed economic relation in which Argentina has a trade with China that benefits them. otherwise the opposition like in Mexico will ask any excuse to expel them

well, he is PRI :) but you gotta give PRI credit for keeping the peace in Mexico for so long since the Mexican Revolution. I've been reading about the Mexican Revolution lately. Gotta give you guys credit for achieving so much with little bloodshed, little bloodshed compare to Chinese scale that is.

on the Dragonmart deal. yeah, Chinese businesses definitely need to get better at reading the local culture and political climate in order to do business in foreign countries. but like you wrote earlier, since NAFTA Mexican economic negotiation position has actually decreased. increased Chinese economic participation in Mexico should give it better bargaining tools.
 

b787

Captain
well, he is PRI :) but you gotta give PRI credit for keeping the peace in Mexico for so long since the Mexican Revolution. I've been reading about the Mexican Revolution lately. Gotta give you guys credit for achieving so much with little bloodshed, little bloodshed compare to Chinese scale that is.

on the Dragonmart deal. yeah, Chinese businesses definitely need to get better at reading the local culture and political climate in order to do business in foreign countries. but like you wrote earlier, since NAFTA Mexican economic negotiation position has actually decreased. increased Chinese economic participation in Mexico should give it better bargaining tools.
The PRI, as a party, is relatively new, there were other names for the same party; but yes it did some good things in the past, nowadays is hated by most Mexicans.

However to understand the relation between China and Latin America, in this case Argentina more specifically, you have to understand trade and geopolitics.

Argentina since 1982, has lost its place in the western world, Argentina is another Australia or Canada type country, however the Falklands war, has made Argentina a nation punished by the British diplomacy.

Mexico is a nation with a similar economic philosophy to China, i mean we are an export oriented economy, we are an export oriented economy of manufactured goods.

Argentina is an industrial power, however, it has suffered British encirclement, Similar to Russia, it has been after the war limited to get weapons and finance.

since the late 1990s and 2000s, Mexico has become a provider of manufactured goods to the US market, Argentina, is not oriented to export goods but commodities among them soy and meat, because Argentina has a very developed agriculture and farming industries.

So when China started buying commodities, this was welcomed by Argentina, when China started exported to the USA, it was not welcomed by Mexico.

But Both Mexico and Argentina buy Chinese goods, we have no problem, but here is what you have to understand is why Mexico did not allow Dragon mart into Cancun Mexico, and Argentina allows a tracking station.

In Mexico we have industries that compete with China directly so, the environmentalists (political excuse) claimed Dragon mart will affect the environment, this was supported by the national Industry in Mexico, why? simply Mexico has a deficit with China of 11:1 it means we buy 11 dollars in goods from China for a dollar we sell to China .

So the West knows Mexico will support pressure by western companies to block China, Argentina is not different they also have a deficit, the buy more from China than what China buys from them.


Can we cooperate of course, however China has a wrong policy, Argentina is supporting China now because their economic relation has a lot of promises, if China does not deliver, then i can assure they will start rethinking the base, Mexico can cooperate with China, in fact we could basically become complementary in industrial processes but that will depend a lot in China, the Mexican consumer does not care where the things we buy come from, if a Chinese or German good have quality they won`t buy a crappier Mexican made good, but people care about their jobs, but thanks to China we started receiving a lot of investment, sometimes companies in Mexico cooperate with their Chinese counterparts in a good way, it is a matter for China to see they need to buy from us too, otherwise China is not going to really enter well in Latin America and some type of protectionism will appear and in Argentina that will be the first step the opposition and the west will use to eject the base from Neuquen and from Argentina

By the way the Mexican revolution was very bloody, from a population of 15 million between 1.5-3.5 million died, it is us around 20% of the population at least
 

broadsword

Brigadier
A little OT. I think tacos and chipotles are part of the Reconquista; they have taken the US by storm.:p

But I also see Mexico quite strong in science and technology.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
This OT, but TBH, I think Mexico cancelling those two projects for little to no good reason is a very bad move.

The high speed rail especially would have massively benefitted the Mexican economy and people. Now its almost certain to be delayed by years if not over a decade, and if a western firm takes the contract, it will almost certainly come in over budget.

This is at a time when China is looking to massively spend and invest abroad as a means to help lift its economy.

Now, no Chinese company, private or public, will touch Mexico with a barge pole.

As China moves up the value chain, it is going to be outsource more and more of its light manufacturing to places like Malaysia, Thailand, maybe even into Africa, and it will be those countries that will be competing directly with Mexico.

Those countries, with heavy investment from China, will be put at a much stronger position to compete with Mexico, as they will be enjoying much of the conditions that made China so successful at light manufacturing, namely low wages, good infrastructure and experienced owners and managers who could apply their experience setting up and running similar ventures inside China to help replicate China's winning formula in those countries.

And Mexico will be missing out on all of it.

The key to success for a country like Mexico is to play China and America against each over, in effect getting them into a bidding war to see who would offer the best terms and goodies.

By effectively siding with America against China (and for apparently little to no reward) it is not reaping any of the benefits it could have potentially leveraged from one or both, and made it very likely that China will actively seek to strengthen Mexico's direct competitors as a means of weakening an ally of its rival who is actively hostile towards Chinese interests.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Brazil and South Africa are good partners for Argentine military cooperative development, the A-darter and R-darter are good examples of such programs that Argentina could readily jump into to provide modern AAMs. Even India's Kaveri engine, although a cancelled project, could be picked up by FAdeA for development into a viable substitute for the F404 engine if the Argentine air force ever picked up the Gripen fighter.


The only problem is that South African defense firms do a lot of work with BAE, so until the Argentine government changes and the rhetoric ceases, there would probably not be any cooperation between South African firms and Argentine firms.

India's Kaveri engine project is an interesting idea. However, I do not believe that the Indians are finished with this project. There are probably several hundred
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, politicians and engineers making a good living due to this project. Also the French have sold a lot of technology from the M88 engine for the Kaveri, so there may be some French say in the transfer of technology and therefore by extension pressure from the British on the French.


Back to bottling my Grenache
 

b787

Captain
And Mexico will be missing out on all of it.

The key to success for a country like Mexico is to play China and America against each over, in effect getting them into a bidding war to see who would offer the best terms and goodies.

By effectively siding with America against China (and for apparently little to no reward) it is not reaping any of the benefits it could have potentially leveraged from one or both, and made it very likely that China will actively seek to strengthen Mexico's direct competitors as a means of weakening an ally of its rival who is actively hostile towards Chinese interests.
Mexico is not closed to China, we do commerce with China, however there area facts you do not know, of the USD $77 billion dollars of bilateral trade, USD$ 66 are imports from China, Mexico buys USD $66 billion dollars of Chinese goods while China only buys USD $6 millions of Mexican goods
However, the trade balance between the two countries tilts in Beijing’s favor. In 2014, Mexico’s trade deficit with China reached
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.
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.

The US 80% of the Mexican goods, therefore the unbalance of trade caused the problem, another aspect is Bombardier makes the trains of the subway in Mexico, they high speed models, can we buy a bombardier model? yes we can, however our corrupt president decided to scrap the high speed train project.

Argentina is not different their commerce with China is like Mexico

In the past decade, China’s demand for Argentine farm products such soyoil and soymeal has cemented its place as Argentina’s No. 2 trading partner after neighboring Brazil. Bilateral trade rose to $17.3 billion last year, though heavily in favor of China. Argentina’s trade deficit with the Asian country widened 9% from the previous year to $5.4 billion in 2013.
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as you can see that is the reason our government has different than Cristina kitchner, thus we
Former Mexican Ambassador to China Jorge Guajardo explains how the two countries’ trade economies are, in some ways, incompatible. “Mexico exports more manufactured goods than the entire Latin American and Caribbean region together,” Guajardo said in an interview with AS/COA Online. “China is a manufacturing country. So we compete; we don’t complement each other.”
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broadsword

Brigadier
Because Argentina and Mexico are different due to the reasons you highlighted, Argentina has a strong reason for wanting the satellite to stay. It cannot cherry pick its cooperating partners, unlike Mexico and it does not view China as much of a competitor. In fact, it wants to cooperate with China for its own benefits.
 

b787

Captain
Because Argentina and Mexico are different due to the reasons you highlighted, Argentina has a strong reason for wanting the satellite to stay. It cannot cherry pick its cooperating partners, unlike Mexico and it does not view China as much of a competitor. In fact, it wants to cooperate with China for its own benefits.
There are differences, but we want to cooperate, Argentina received the tracking station as a part of an economic deal, the plan is China will invest in Argentina, buy goods from Argentina (probably and likely Argentina will get some Intel) in exchange from Hosting the base.

We buy much more from China than Argentina and we are buying more than Brazil does from China.
In fact we buy 60 billions from China and Brazil only buys 34 billion, if you see we buy more from China than Argentina or Brazil put together

However our policies are different simply because at this moment neither Argentina or Brazil have the large amounts of imports we do have from China, we can not buy from China the same thing we make, and contrary to Brazil or Argentina we are not exporting as much commodities these days
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broadsword

Brigadier
Just found this on Wikipedia.

Wikileaks diplomatic cables describe a divided Latin American opinion regarding China. Neil Dávila, head of Mexico's federal agency for promoting foreign commerce and investments, stated "We do not want to be China’s next Africa," reflecting a common concern regarding the effects of Chinese involvement in Africa. Colombia, Brazil, and Chile also expressed concerns while Venezuela and Argentina were convinced that dependency on the United States must end and saw China as the greatest opportunity for their exports.

Absolutely, China will want to have alternative suppliers of food commodities in addition to their usual ones like Australia and New Zealand.
 
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