China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I agree completely. The problem would be entering the structure (with permission) and seeing that everything is as agreed. The problem lies in that the public is not aware of the detail for any inspection or how they will be done




There has been a rumor (these are not substantiated or official) that in the agreement China is providing Argentina with military tracking of British and Chilean military equipment. If this is real or just hearsay, it would explaine a lot regarding the Laissez-Faire attitude of the Ministry of Defense and the negotiating members of the government.

Which make sense that one would turn a blind eye if they are getting something of value in return (i.e. information support, equipment, and fill in the blank). That includes probable payoffs to certain politicians

Lets all get back on topic

Back to bottling my Grenache
That rumor could very well be the case which may be a reason why the argentine government also CANNOT disclose 100% of what was in the deal to the argentine public or anybody.

The truth is no one knows what exactly was signed! all we can say with relatively certainty is whatever that was signed was done so to benefit both parties' agendas.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
That rumor could very well be the case which may be a reason why the argentine government also CANNOT disclose 100% of what was in the deal to the argentine public or anybody.

The truth is no one knows what exactly was signed! all we can say with relatively certainty is whatever that was signed was done so to benefit both parties' agendas.
That rumor could very well be the case which may be a reason why the argentine government also CANNOT disclose 100% of what was in the deal to the argentine public or anybody.

The truth is no one knows what exactly was signed! all we can say with relatively certainty is whatever that was signed was done so to benefit both parties' agendas.

Absolutely correct!

I say that it cannot be substantiated or official. This is just here say from my cousin that works in the Ministry of the Navy.

If it is true, which personally I suspect it is so, that places Argentina in a very sticky situation by taking sides. The current bunch in the administration is former Montonero terrorists from the 1970s. With their Marxist/progressive ideology they have no problem sticking a finger in the eye of the United States. The leader of the free world and protector of liberty. That is a very dangerous game they are playing.

Below is a list of terrorists from the 1970s that misgoverns Argentina currently:

Link:
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Back to bottling my Grenache
 

b787

Captain
Absolutely correct!

I say that it cannot be substantiated or official. This is just here say from my cousin that works in the Ministry of the Navy.

If it is true, which personally I suspect it is so, that places Argentina in a very sticky situation by taking sides. The current bunch in the administration is former Montonero terrorists from the 1970s. With their Marxist/progressive ideology they have no problem sticking a finger in the eye of the United States. The leader of the free world and protector of liberty. That is a very dangerous game they are playing.

Below is a list of terrorists from the 1970s that misgoverns Argentina currently:

Link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Back to bottling my Grenache
In my opinion, i suspect that, that is an obvious, however i think it is a grave mistake, in 1917, Germany offered to Mexico, would mexico enter the war against the US and in the side of Germany, Mexico would regain the territories we lost in the 1848 and 1833 wars with the USA.
Even more recently Chechnya said they wanted to arm Mexico so we could fight the US.



All that is madness, first any Mexican has relatives in the US who are US citizens, i have dozens of them, second while it has disadvantages being so close to the US, it has also advantages, so i am in favor of having a good relation with the USA; Argentina by allowing a foreign power to do that already will be in the sight of England, the US, and many many Latin American countries, plus in reality most of Latin nation are in favor of Argentina in the Falkland/Malvinas issue. So it is not beneficial to Argentina
 

Zool

Junior Member
It just seems like quite an overreaction to me, the light in which you see this monitoring station in, and the severity of carries in diplomatic relations with the US & Europe. I mean you've talked about Argentina being a potential military target for hosting this facility -- do you really think the US would attack a sovereign third party nation like Argentina to get at one tracking station -- a non military installation? Where does that leave the rest of the world in doing business with China? I can only imagine your reaction to a big Chinese arms sale to Argentina like in the case of JF-17's :)
 

b787

Captain
It just seems like quite an overreaction to me, the light in which you see this monitoring station in, and the severity of carries in diplomatic relations with the US & Europe. I mean you've talked about Argentina being a potential military target for hosting this facility -- do you really think the US would attack a sovereign third party nation like Argentina to get at one tracking station -- a non military installation? Where does that leave the rest of the world in doing business with China? I can only imagine your reaction to a big Chinese arms sale to Argentina like in the case of JF-17's :)
If you think that you do not know History, and in particular the Latin American history


One thing is buying cars, computers, cellphones and another is buying weapons.
Argentina by allowing a tracking station already will be in the sights of England to say the least
Amid the barren and windswept Andes foothills of Argentina’s southern Neuquén province, a large billboard signals in English the entrance to the
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Satellite Launch and Tracking Control General (CLTC) – China’s first space installation outside its own borders.

After two years’ work, some 300 Argentinian workers led by nine Chinese managers have completed the cement casing for a 35-metre-diameter antenna – and on Wednesday night the base was finally approved by Argentina’s congress, amid a fierce debate about its true purpose.

Designed to track unmanned Chinese missions to Mars and the moon, the installation is due to go into operation next year. But opposition politicians have raised fears that it could eventually be used for military purposes, drawing
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into unwanted confrontation with third countries, such as the US.

“It’s dual civilian-military technology,” said opposition senator and presidential hopeful Fernando Solanas. “It can be used for both aerospace and missile tracking.”

Congressional approval for the base was tacked on to a broad and equally controversial economic and trade agreement finalised during President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner’s official visit to China earlier this month.

As in the case of other vital laws pushed through by Fernández, the China agreement was approved in a rushed rubber-stamp vote by what Argentina’s press calls the president’s “automatic majority” in Congress, where the president’s FPV Victory Front party holds the majority in both houses.

This has not stopped opposition legislators from speaking out loudly against both the space base and the economic deal with Beijing.
Fiery opposition legislator Elisa Carrió compared the agreement with China with the £1m ($1.5m) borrowed from Barings Brothers in London in 1824 - a loan that it took Argentina 81 years to repay. “In a moment of temporary crisis we handed the country over to the British, now we’re doing the same with China,” Carrió said
“We are surrendering the future of Argentina’s development,” said opposition
legislator José Ignacio de Mendiguren, head of the UIA industrial union, the main association of Argentina’s business leaders. Mendiguren claims the agreement reduces Argentina to providing unprocessed commodities to China while Argentina will be buying value-added goods from the Asian giant.

China has also extended loans for two hydroelectric dams it will build in
Patagonia, among other projects. Argentina is the world’s third-largest
exporter of soy and China is it’s main buyer.
Critics have also pointed to a generous 50-year tax exemption for the base
and a 50-year lease to China of the 200 hectares (nearly 500 acres)
surrounding the antenna.
But Argentina’s space agency CONAE has dismissed the criticism saying that
Argentina has signed a similar agreement with the ESA European
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Agency
for a similar base in the Malargüe region of the western province of
Mendoza.
“This is part of the policies being instrumented by President Fernández to
insert Argentina into great projects of scientific and technological
development,” said Conae Secretary-General Felix Menicocci. In return for
the tax and land concession, Argentina will be allowed to use the antenna
for 10% of its online time.
For the people in the southern region of Patagonia, China’s space base
is nothing but good news. As the giant antenna, visible from long distances,
rises in the barren and wind-swept locality of Bajada del Agrio, 1380
kilometres (857 miles) south of the capital city of Buenos Aires, the 300
workers required for its construction have brought badly-needed economic
activity to the town of Las Lajas, some 50 kilometres from the project,
where the workers are located.
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b787

Captain
Critical voices

Sectors of the business community are critical of the alliance with Beijing, such as the Argentine Industrial Union (UIA) or the Chamber of Exports, which sounded a warning about the asymmetrical nature of the relationship.

This country’s exports to China are only half of what it imports from the Asian giant, and they are basically raw materials or farm products. A full 75 percent is soy or by-products.

Imports, by contrast, are mainly machinery and electronics, computers, telephones, chemical products, motorcycles or parts for household appliances.


The UIA said the framework agreement on economic cooperation and investment, signed in July 2014 and pending final approval by the legislature, “contains clauses that pose an enormous risk to Argentina’s development.”

“Over the last decade, China’s strategy has pursued two central objectives: to consolidate its transnational companies in global value chains and to obtain commodities and inputs with little value-added, for its growing productive and employment needs,” the UIA said in a communiqué.

“In free trade agreements in this era of globalisation, the essential thing is not trade but investment,” said Castro, who questioned the concept of “asymmetry” and backed the agreement with China.

The China expert said the relationship should be analysed in a broader context. For example, by remembering that in the next 10 years, China’s foreign direct investment is estimated to climb to 1.1 trillion dollars.

“The question is how to manage to be part of China’s flow of investment in industry in the next 10 to 20 years,” Castro said.

The UIA agrees that it is important to be part of that current, but with allocations that would not harm local goods and services, which have no chance of receiving Chinese financing, the business chamber said.
The UIA and some trade unions also worry that Chinese labour power, which is included in several projects, will displace local workers.

“Don’t worry, we continue to defend Argentine workers and the business community’s participation,” said centre-left President Fernández, who urged those sectors to engage in technical discussions about the accords.

The new empire?

Some in Argentina see the China of the 21st century as the new England of the 19th century or the United States of the 20th century, in terms of economic and territorial hegemony and domination.

They also question the construction of a Chinese space tracking and control station in the southern Argentine province of Neuquén, which according to the government will monitor, control and gather data as part of China’s programme of missions to explore the moon and outer space.
Raúl Dobrusin, an opposition legislator from Neuquén, told IPS that the agreement, which grants China the use of 200 hectares for 50 years and is opposed by left-wing groups and social organisations, did not go through the Neuquén provincial legislature, which was not informed of the details of the accord.

So far there is no Chinese military presence in the construction project, said Dobrusin, but in his view, the space station poses “major geopolitical risks.”

“If there is a confrontation between powerful nations, we will be a place to be taken into account by the enemies of China…In short, we are getting into an area where the possibility of deciding whether or not to participate in conflicts is no longer a sovereign decision, they won’t ask us,” he warned.

“The alliance transcends economic matters and forms part of the search for independence, on both the economic and political fronts, which makes it possible to reach economic and social development goals, by breaking the yoke of neoliberalism and the empire-dependence logic,” said Vallejos.

China, in her view, “is far from the voracity of the Western powers…It is part of a new global order that is struggling to be born, where the role of emerging countries is no longer one of colonialism but of assuming the position of builders of our own destiny,” said the economist.

“That does not mean that China isn’t obtaining benefits from its ties with our nations, but that it is possible to build a win-win relationship for all of the parties involved,” she said.

Edited by Estrella Gutiérrez/Translated by Stephanie Wildes

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Equation

Lieutenant General
IMO Argentina or any Latin American countries should not be afraid to trade with anyone they deem useful to their own interests not in regards to whatever the European nations or US feels about it. Bottom line they shouldn't wait to get a nod from their former colonial masters to make trades whether it's commercial, cultural exchanges or militarily.
 

b787

Captain
IMO Argentina or any Latin American countries should not be afraid to trade with anyone they deem useful to their own interests not in regards to whatever the European nations or US feels about it. Bottom line they shouldn't wait to get a nod from their former colonial masters to make trades whether it's commercial, cultural exchanges or militarily.
We do commerce without any trouble we are free, consider this the US and Europe are the main commercial trade partners of China, thus Latin America does commerce with China unhindered.

The politicians in Argentina are just wandering the benefits the tracking station has only that, and to see the benefits they have to see the geopolitical benefits it has.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
It just seems like quite an overreaction to me, the light in which you see this monitoring station in, and the severity of carries in diplomatic relations with the US & Europe. I mean you've talked about Argentina being a potential military target for hosting this facility -- do you really think the US would attack a sovereign third party nation like Argentina to get at one tracking station -- a non military installation? Where does that leave the rest of the world in doing business with China? I can only imagine your reaction to a big Chinese arms sale to Argentina like in the case of JF-17's :)

Really it has nothing to do with the United States attacking another nation. It is about the intelligence provided by Chinese (if true) to the Argentine military. This information could be used in any potential conflict with Chile. And when I include Chile I also mean Britain. Since any future conflict will not be about the Falkland/Malvinas, but about the territorial claims in the Antarctic. (See link https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/hi...-nation-inter-rivalry-and-arms-buildup.t6905/ specifically post #3)

If indeed that post is providing some sort of military observation, it therefore becomes a prospective target.


Back to bottling my Grenache
 

Zool

Junior Member
Really it has nothing to do with the United States attacking another nation. It is about the intelligence provided by Chinese (if true) to the Argentine military. This information could be used in any potential conflict with Chile. And when I include Chile I also mean Britain. Since any future conflict will not be about the Falkland/Malvinas, but about the territorial claims in the Antarctic. (See link https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/hi...-nation-inter-rivalry-and-arms-buildup.t6905/ specifically post #3)

If indeed that post is providing some sort of military observation, it therefore becomes a prospective target.


Back to bottling my Grenache

I generally agree. Which is why I was surprised to see that line of thinking from b787 and the level of threat he believes hosting this station will attribute to Argentina -- specifically an attack from the US as a result. On that score, the station is in place, so time will tell.

Times are changing and the cost of unilateral strike against a third-party nation like Argentina to get at a benign (i.e. non-offensive) Chinese space facility is high, diplomatically and otherwise. Never mind the developing demographics of the US with its growing Latin American population and those implications, present and future.

Anyhow, I was not going to pursue further as it's b787's world view and I'm not here to change it, just share my own perspective. Thought I owed you a reply though since you quoted my post. Cheers.
 
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