China and Argentina re Falklands/Malvinas

b787

Captain
There are more extreme cases of foreign establishments in a country. The US has some twenty nuclear weapons in the Netherlands. The Dutch parliament was never asked to agree to their presence and indeed a few years back accepted a motion demanding their removal. They are still there and I don't imagine there will ever be an Open House in which Dutch people can go and look at them.
Delf, i understand you point, however try to see i am by the most part translating you what the programs say

Consider this is a TV program, millions of Argentine citizens are watching this program, they are saying is this Chinese space monitoring station for peaceful purposes?

Try to see this is what is really happening, they are questioning all the things i said, i know it will not be popular here, but that is what the programs, they are saying the real people who control this monitoring station is controlled by the Chinese military

Any one who speaks Spanish can see that is what it is said in the program they even interview the Diputada (politician) Beatriz Kreitman

and you can even say there are demonstrations calling it military bases


If you speak Spanish you will know i am not lying
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Delf, i understand you point, however try to see i am by the most part translating you what the programs say

Consider this is a TV program, millions of Argentine citizens are watching this program, they are saying is this Chinese space monitoring station for peaceful purposes?

Try to see this is what is really happening, they are questioning all the things i said, i know it will not be popular here, but that is what the programs, they are saying the real people who control this monitoring station is controlled by the Chinese military

Any one who speaks Spanish can see that is what it is said in the program they even interview the Diputada (politician) Beatriz Kreitman

and you can even say there are demonstrations calling it military bases


If you speak Spanish you will know i am not lying

Mi amigo, I don't think anyone here is saying you're not telling the truth. I think the media is overhyping the event. For the sake of argument let's say it is run by the chinese military how would that change anything?

The fact is I presume the Chinese government sign a legally binding contract with the Argentine government to put a monitoring station there and that after some negotiations the deal was democratically approved by the Argentina Congress so now you have a station there.

I obviously do not know the exact detail and fine prints of the contract therefore it's entirely possible that the station may potentially have dual purpose use such as aerospace and missile tracking but I also like to think that the Argentina Congress would know of such intentions and that the Chinese would disclose such future intentions as such since this is not something that can be easily hidden.
It would be extremely foolish and illogical for China to not disclose such things because it would cause them more harm than good.

Again unless the contract specifically says the station is only to be use to broadcast Disney channels but China instead use it for ICBM tracking I am not seeing what the fuss is all about to be totally honest... and again assuming china did make such a foolish step like that then obviously the Argentina government would step in and sue or take other actions for breach or contract with the international community or just bulldoze the entire facility down. That however hasn't happen so I'm going to presume the protest, sound bites etc are probably from misinformed citizens.

If I'm an argentine citizen and this bothers me that much, I would personally protest the government decision in the first place and not about the physical station itself.

just my 2 cents
 

b787

Captain
Mi amigo, I don't think anyone here is saying you're not telling the truth. I think the media is overhyping the event. For the sake of argument let's say it is run by the chinese military how would that change anything?






? simply just my 2 cents
They are not over hyping the situation, why? if you watch this video and you understand what are they say you will see Alberto Asseff - Diputado Nacional Frente Renovador ( Politician) you will see the Cristina Kitchner, has opposition, the decision to have the tracking station has been allowed by her Government, thus politicians, citizens, and the media are enough smart to understand the political implications this has, for example it is publicly known the tracking station does not pay taxes, this makes local people of Neuquen to get upset since they see no real benefit.
Plus they say any trouble that happens in the station will be dealt in China, thus many politicians in Argentina are against it

 

B.I.B.

Captain
A Little off Topic and Im not suggesting any ideas Mirage. .Actually I was part of the police team that went up and made the initial investigation to the destruction of one of the radomes that shield the dishes at Waihopai listening station.Waihopai Station is part of an international evesdropping group lead by the USA..

Spy base verdict lets protesters go free
By
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Three peace protesters have been found not guilty of an attack on a top-secret South Island spy base, despite freely admitting causing damage put at $1 million.

Otaki schoolteacher Adrian Leason, Auckland Catholic priest Peter Murnane and Hokianga farmer Sam Land were cleared by a Wellington District Court jury yesterday evening of burglary and wilful damage.................

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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Exactly my point... Kristina kerchner and also the argentine congress approved of the building. Regardless of how we all feel about her and her cronies the fact is she as the leader of Argentina as well as other political leaders of Argentina approved of the Chinese sat building.

If that building is used for something NOT in the agreement than it is the duty of the argentine government to address that issue and to make those known to her own citizens.
 

Zool

Junior Member
Well, let's be candid and not over or understate things:

- Virtually 99% of all Space programs are of a dual-use capability and benefit
- This is a Tracking & Monitoring station, not a site for staging/launching military intercepts
- Distribution & Location of sites such as this are required throughout the world for any country with a major Space program, especially one that includes a global coverage GPS such as the US Navstar or Chinese Beidou along with manned launches
- Foreign Government or Military personnel would similarly not be granted access to a US Tracking Station without prior authorization
- It is Chinese Equipment & Technology located on site which is sensitive to espionage concerns
- Relations would already have to be pretty bad with the US for Argentina to worry about a military strike on a Space monitoring station; in that case why appease that perceived aggression?
-
It does not make any sense too you that is fine, but it does make sense for the Argentine people, since they think that space station will be used for military purposes, and that is very easy to see
This seems to indicate that most Argentine people feel this way (negatively, to say the least) about the Chinese monitoring station. Is this actually true and quantifiable in a poll or some such?

A little dated but makes clear some of this is not new information regarding access:
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A space tracking station for lunar exploration being built in Argentine Patagonia by China, as part of the strategic relation and accords between the two countries, has caused concern in the Argentine congress because of the secrecy surrounding the terms of the deal.

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According to the Neuquen province minister Rodolfo Laffitte, the space antenna will be finished and ready to operate next February.

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Conae chairman Felix Menicocci denied any Chinese military personnel would be involved, but Argentine opposition Senators remain suspicious

In effect the construction of the station in Neuquen, 1.380 kilometers from Buenos Aires in an area covering 200 hectares, already involves hundreds of workers and heavy equipment, but the conditions of the accord, which must be approved by the Legislative apparently contain several confidential clauses which signatories are not prepared to reveal.

The deal involves Argentina's National Commission of Space Activities, Conae, has some clauses that have surprised lawmakers: the land is ceased for fifty years; Argentina 'will not interrupt normal activities' at the station; staff working in the station in Neuquen will be ruled by Chinese law and the Chinese government ensures Argentina “will not be hold accountable for claims of any nature”.

According to the Neuquen province minister Rodolfo Laffitte, the space antenna will be finished and ready to operate next February. If works are so advanced why then is congressional blessing?

Once the construction work is over, the Chinese experts and laborers will arrive in Neuquen with the space tracking equipment. The Chinese counterpart of Conae, the National agency for the launching and control of satellites, CLTC, will be running the show since Argentina will only be able to make use of 10% of usable time, that is “2 hours and forty minutes per day for scientific and technologic activities”.

However 'confidential' issues and other details were not included in the accord package sent to Congress and there is concern the station could be used by the Chinese to track missiles. A concern allegedly shared by the Argentine military since the Ministry of Defense was not consulted on the space station.

Conae chairman Felix Menicocci questioned by the Senate Foreign affairs committee denied any Chinese military personnel would be involved, a fact apparently confirmed by the Chinese embassy in Buenos Aires.

But several opposition senators pointed out that the tracking technology is of dual purpose “civilian and military” and highly sensitive. Furthermore in China “these tracking programs of space and missile activities are integrated”, and CLTC specifically depends from the Arms Department and the Military Central commission from the People's Liberation Army of China.

Finally the Neuquen project once finished will be under the custody of the Gendarmerie, which in Argentina is responsible for controlling borders.

The space station is thus one of several projects agreed by Argentina and China which also includes, financing infrastructure (hydroelectric dams), fisheries advantages in the South Atlantic and the swaps at Central banks level which gives Argentina access to much needed hard currency, in this case globally traded Yuans.
 

b787

Captain
Well, let's be candid and not over or understate things:

- Virtually 99% of all Space programs are of a dual-use capability and benefit
- This is a Tracking & Monitoring station, not a site for staging/launching military intercepts
- Distribution & Location of sites such as this are required throughout the world for any country with a major Space program, especially one that includes a global coverage GPS such as the US Navstar or Chinese Beidou along with manned launches
- Foreign Government or Military personnel would similarly not be granted access to a US Tracking Station without prior authorization
- It is Chinese Equipment & Technology located on site which is sensitive to espionage concerns
- Relations would already have to be pretty bad with the US for Argentina to worry about a military strike on a Space monitoring station; in that case why appease that perceived aggression?
- This seems to indicate that most Argentine people feel this way (negatively, to say the least) about the Chinese monitoring station. Is this actually true and quantifiable in a poll or some such?

A little dated but makes clear some of this is not new information regarding access:
For a nation to have an opinion about anything you need information.

Thus when you have one of the main newspapers and news outlets in Argentina saying it violates the national sovereignty, you can guess what is the main trend in a country


Chinese advance in Neuquen for 50 years without tax
Disclosure of Journalism for all

Argentina gave 200 hectares, through an agreement signed in February Cristina. It is claimed that the base is controlled by the Chinese army. They fear that is intended for military use.

Avance chino en Neuquén por 50 años y sin impuestos
Revelación de Periodismo para todos

Argentina cedió 200 hectáreas, por medio de un convenio que firmó Cristina en febrero. Aseguran que la base es controlada por la Ejército chino. Temen que se destine para uso militar.
"El beneficio para Argentina no lo puedo deducir", expresó en el informe de PPT el intendente de Neuquén, Horacio Quiroga.

En tanto, el experto en seguridad Ricardo Runza reveló que la base"depende de una agencia paramilitar". Y agregó: "Vemos a esta base con fines fundamentalmente militares. Implica una cuasi sesión de soberanía argentina a una potencia extranjera".

"The benefit to Argentina can not deduct it," said the report of the mayor of Neuquen PPT, Horacio Quiroga.

Meanwhile, security expert Ricardo Runza revealed that the base "depends on a paramilitary agency." He added: "We see on this basis primarily for military purposes involves a quasi Argentina session sovereignty to a foreign power.".

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b787

Captain
Exactly my point... Kristina kerchner and also the argentine congress approved of the building. Regardless of how we all feel about her and her cronies the fact is she as the leader of Argentina as well as other political leaders of Argentina approved of the Chinese sat building.

If that building is used for something NOT in the agreement than it is the duty of the argentine government to address that issue and to make those known to her own citizens.
I do not think you understand the problem Argentina will face, since even for the people of Argentina it is not declassify the agreement, do you think England or the USA will see it as a peaceful program?

see:

La preocupación y alerta por la estación espacial que China instalará en Neuquén excedieron las fronteras de la Argentina. No sólo los legisladores de la oposición objetaron desde el Congreso ese acuerdo sellado entre Cristina Kirchner y su par chino, Xi Jinping, por el eventual uso militar de esa planta. La inquietud por ese proyecto también se planteó en forma reservada de parte de los Estados Unidos y la Unión Europea.

Pocos días antes del 25 de febrero pasado, cuando se sancionó en la Cámara de Diputados el paquete de acuerdos con China, que incluía la instalación por 50 años de la estación espacial en Neuquén, los responsables del área de Defensa de la embajada de Estados Unidos en Buenos Aires trasladaron su inquietud sobre el proyecto de China a varios oficiales en actividad y retirados de las Fuerzas Armadas.
Pero no fue el único caso. Según consignaron a la nacion fuentes diplomáticas calificadas, hubo varios países de la Unión Europea que trasladaron cierta preocupación por el posible uso militar de la antena que estará situada en un predio de 200 hectáreas en la localidad de Bajada del Agrio y que sólo será monitoreada por personal de Pekín.

La alerta se trasladó a varias oficinas de la Cancillería y de la Casa Rosada e incluyó cierto malestar de la UE por las explicaciones que dio en público el Gobierno para justificar el acuerdo con China.

Hasta la delegación de la Unión Europea en la Argentina tuvo que explicar a varios funcionarios del Gobierno que la estación satelital de China no tiene nada que ver con la estación de la UE situada en la localidad mendocina de Malargüe como lo plantearon varios legisladores oficialistas al defender el acuerdo en el Congreso. La UE se preocupó en aclarar que la estación de Malargüe no tiene fines militares, ya que la Agencia Espacial Europea (ESA, por sus siglas en inglés), que está a cargo de la estación de Mendoza, es manejada sólo por civiles y no por militares.

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Concern and alert the space station installed in Neuquen China exceeded the boundaries of Argentina. Not only opposition lawmakers objected from the Congress that sealed agreement between Cristina Kirchner and his Chinese counterpart, Xi Jinping, the possible military use of the plant. The concern was also raised that project in reserved form part of the United States and the European Union.

A few days before 25 February, when it passed the package of agreements with China, including the facility for 50 years of the space station in Neuquén in the Chamber of Deputies, those responsible for the defense of the US Embassy in Buenos Aires moved their concerns about the project from China to several active and retired officers of the Armed Forces.

But it was not the only case. As they consigned to the nation diplomats qualified, there were several countries of the European Union moved some concern about the possible military use of the antenna will be located in an area of 200 hectares in the town of Bajada del Agrio and it will only be monitored by Beijing staff.

The alert went to several offices of the Foreign Ministry and the Casa Rosada and included some discomfort EU by the explanations given by the Government to publicly justify the agreement with China.

Until the Delegation of the European Union in Argentina had to explain to several government officials that the satellite station of China has nothing to do with the season of the EU at the Mendoza town of Malargüe as raised several government legislators to defend the agreement in Congress. The EU was concerned to clarify that the station Malargüe has no military purpose, as the European Space Agency (ESA, its acronym in English), which is in charge of the station Mendoza, is handled only by civilians and not by military.
 

Zool

Junior Member
For a nation to have an opinion about anything you need information.

Thus when you have one of the main newspapers and news outlets in Argentina saying it violates the national sovereignty, you can guess what is the main trend in a country

Not to get too far afield but I can tell you that the vast majority of media outlets in the world do NOT speak for the citizenry of a country - nor are they meant to, rather they are there to report factual news.

In the best of cases when not simply reporting factual events, they are pursuing 'investigative journalism' i.e. asking challenging questions, but generally without a biased position and in the national interest. In many cases however they are pursing a political (to influence) or special interest (for money) angle on the information they present, or putting sensational spin on things as a form of entertainment to generate viewer/readership.

In the case of the Chinese monitoring station in Argentina and referring back to the comments I made in my earlier post, which would you say you are seeing in the media you are consuming on this topic?
 

b787

Captain
Not to get too far afield but I can tell you that the vast majority of media outlets in the world do NOT speak for the citizenry of a country - nor are they meant to, rather they are there to report factual news.

In the best of cases when not simply reporting factual events, they are pursuing 'investigative journalism' i.e. asking challenging questions, but generally without a biased position and in the national interest. In many cases however they are pursing a political (to influence) or special interest (for money) angle on the information they present, or putting sensational spin on things as a form of entertainment to generate viewer/readership.

In the case of the Chinese monitoring station in Argentina and referring back to the comments I made in my earlier post, which would you say you are seeing in the media you are consuming on this topic?
The media always represents sectors of the population, in Argentina there are sectors of the population that consider that will have political implications for the country, any one who knows history of Latin America knows that when a government starts leaning towards a foreign power other than the USA and the main western European countries (Spain, France or England) sectors of the population are not happy since they start seeing the potential troubles this will bring, in Mexico for example Álvaro Obregón Salido (a former Mexican president) was supported by the US when Pancho Villa was going to receive a shipment of German weapons in 1916.

Argentina is similar, Peron had his troubles due to similar circumstances, Argentina already has complaints by local politicians and the EU and USA, any one with common sense see this will have implications


The worry and alarm over the space station that China will construct in Neuquen has spread beyond Argentina's borders. The opposition's legislators in Congress weren't the only ones to object to this sealed agreement between Argentine President Cristina Kirchner and her Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping over the possible military use of the station. Concern about this project also discreetly reached part of the United States and the European Union.
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and see

Designed to track unmanned Chinese missions to Mars and the moon, the installation is due to go into operation next year. But opposition politicians have raised fears that it could eventually be used for military purposes, drawing
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into unwanted confrontation with third countries, such as the US.

“It’s dual civilian-military technology,” said opposition senator and presidential hopeful Fernando Solanas. “It can be used for both aerospace and missile tracking.”
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