MwRYum
Major
What they need is Taser.
PLA Small arms
- Thread starter Vanguard1688
- Start date
antiterror13
Brigadier
broadsword
Brigadier
In my country, they carry both.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Tazers also have limitation's. Short ranges, wide dispersal, single shot and there primary effect is pain. Some attackers will still be able to continue to resist and assault despite being taxed multiple times.
. The function of a firearm in law enforcement is that last line. Its not about maiming, its not a less then lethal its the absolute last resort and the threat there in. Tazers are nice as a step between. A means to hopefully subdue a attacker or suspect with the threat of pain. Trouble is the threat of pain is sometimes not enough. That I where lethal force comes in. The threat that continued provocative action will result in termination.
The mentally that you employ a firearm as a nonlethal in a fight is dubious at best. It promotes a false sense of security and safety. Wounding is also dubious as if the attacker is on any number of narcotics they may not even be effected by tazing or wounding.
The firearm is meant to finish the encounter terminally. However in this case it seems to me as if the designers of this round decided not to follow that logic.
Legally dum dum or bullets designed to maim are limited from international military service based on conventions. But not so for domestic law enforcement use. In face Such are deemed necessary for operations in urban where conventional power 9mm and pistol rounds can over penetrate barriers. Using frangible or hollow points can reduce the penetrative power and I the process creates yaw and hydrodynamic stress.
The human body is rather a resilient design it takes alot to terminate life functions. If a subject has though narcotics or other means become deadened to pain the individual could sustain substantial amounts of damage before succumbing to pulmonary shock.
In example the movie Halloween is based on a true story where a college classmate of John Carpenter suffered a bad Acid trip and in essence became a zombie. It took dozens of shots before he died.
. The function of a firearm in law enforcement is that last line. Its not about maiming, its not a less then lethal its the absolute last resort and the threat there in. Tazers are nice as a step between. A means to hopefully subdue a attacker or suspect with the threat of pain. Trouble is the threat of pain is sometimes not enough. That I where lethal force comes in. The threat that continued provocative action will result in termination.
The mentally that you employ a firearm as a nonlethal in a fight is dubious at best. It promotes a false sense of security and safety. Wounding is also dubious as if the attacker is on any number of narcotics they may not even be effected by tazing or wounding.
The firearm is meant to finish the encounter terminally. However in this case it seems to me as if the designers of this round decided not to follow that logic.
Legally dum dum or bullets designed to maim are limited from international military service based on conventions. But not so for domestic law enforcement use. In face Such are deemed necessary for operations in urban where conventional power 9mm and pistol rounds can over penetrate barriers. Using frangible or hollow points can reduce the penetrative power and I the process creates yaw and hydrodynamic stress.
The human body is rather a resilient design it takes alot to terminate life functions. If a subject has though narcotics or other means become deadened to pain the individual could sustain substantial amounts of damage before succumbing to pulmonary shock.
In example the movie Halloween is based on a true story where a college classmate of John Carpenter suffered a bad Acid trip and in essence became a zombie. It took dozens of shots before he died.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Looking at America's woeful (and secretive) death by police shooting statistics, one can appreciate why China is looking at an alternative approach to law enforcement firearms use that does not kill so very many of its citizens.
I believe the approach to this revolver and round philosophy is one of stopping power.
Not tlife ermination stopping power as is normally used in military circles, but rather the aim is to deliver maximum kinetic force while minimising the chances of life terminating injuries and/or collateral damage from over penetration.
The idea is more to knock an assalent off their feet so the officers could easier subdue and restrain him rather than kill him outright.
This approach would not work in America where everyone and their dog is packing heat, but in China, where private firearms ownership is pretty much entirely prohibited, and instances of homemade or smuggled illegal firearms use is exceptionally rare, the police could afford to sacrific some lethality and not be put at too much risk.
People need to remember that the role and function of the police is fundamentally different from the military, and I think that is where American law enforcement has sadly got it very wrong.
By operating more and more with a military mindset, tactics and weaponry, it is creating massive social fritiction and discontent.
The police is supposed to be there to protect and server citizens, not to terminate them for modest or even petty offences.
I believe the approach to this revolver and round philosophy is one of stopping power.
Not tlife ermination stopping power as is normally used in military circles, but rather the aim is to deliver maximum kinetic force while minimising the chances of life terminating injuries and/or collateral damage from over penetration.
The idea is more to knock an assalent off their feet so the officers could easier subdue and restrain him rather than kill him outright.
This approach would not work in America where everyone and their dog is packing heat, but in China, where private firearms ownership is pretty much entirely prohibited, and instances of homemade or smuggled illegal firearms use is exceptionally rare, the police could afford to sacrific some lethality and not be put at too much risk.
People need to remember that the role and function of the police is fundamentally different from the military, and I think that is where American law enforcement has sadly got it very wrong.
By operating more and more with a military mindset, tactics and weaponry, it is creating massive social fritiction and discontent.
The police is supposed to be there to protect and server citizens, not to terminate them for modest or even petty offences.
In the Netherlands, as in other European countries, the civilian police developed from military police, pretty long ago, and therefore always carries a weapon. However they don't have the time to sufficiently train in the use of that weapon which leads to more fatalities than is reasonable. There is also the need to find a better weapon, again, as there are also quality problems.
Equation
Lieutenant General
Why not just train the personnel instead? That would save a lot of time and money and innocent bystander lives as well.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Okay ticking back.
Tranquilizers guns.
Tranquilizers are a drug, and like any drug its all about dosage. Hollywood movies like tranquilizers but they always fail on the fundamentals of dosage. To little and the person is unaffected to much and they are dead.
@Wolfy, kinda boarding on country bashing. The mindset is last resort for a reason wolf. Because no one wants Police gunning down ever suspect. Even so called "Non lethal" rounds kill.
Here is the flaw I have with your argument.
"not tlife ermination stopping power as is normally used in military circles, but rather the aim is to deliver maximum kinetic force while minimising the chances of life terminating injuries and/or collateral damage from over penetration.
The idea is more to knock an assalent off their feet so the officers could easier subdue and restrain him rather than kill him outright"
The round in this case is a low power ice pick. Its low velocity with low caliber. For what you are describing its not even in the neighborhood. Your talking more about a rubber bullet. Or bean bag round A means to knock a subject down.
But the round in question is not that. Any wounds produced would be a direct entry and exit with minimal energy transfer or static impact.
What you are describing would be a round with a high velocity and large surface area like a 12 gauge. This is not it.
Low muzzle velocity, low surface area, jacketed round that does not transfer energy. The only way this would be effective in neutralizing attackers is critical organ damage or blood loss. Both would take time to set in, and night not be able to disable a attacker.
Tranquilizers guns.
Tranquilizers are a drug, and like any drug its all about dosage. Hollywood movies like tranquilizers but they always fail on the fundamentals of dosage. To little and the person is unaffected to much and they are dead.
@Wolfy, kinda boarding on country bashing. The mindset is last resort for a reason wolf. Because no one wants Police gunning down ever suspect. Even so called "Non lethal" rounds kill.
Here is the flaw I have with your argument.
"not tlife ermination stopping power as is normally used in military circles, but rather the aim is to deliver maximum kinetic force while minimising the chances of life terminating injuries and/or collateral damage from over penetration.
The idea is more to knock an assalent off their feet so the officers could easier subdue and restrain him rather than kill him outright"
The round in this case is a low power ice pick. Its low velocity with low caliber. For what you are describing its not even in the neighborhood. Your talking more about a rubber bullet. Or bean bag round A means to knock a subject down.
But the round in question is not that. Any wounds produced would be a direct entry and exit with minimal energy transfer or static impact.
What you are describing would be a round with a high velocity and large surface area like a 12 gauge. This is not it.
Low muzzle velocity, low surface area, jacketed round that does not transfer energy. The only way this would be effective in neutralizing attackers is critical organ damage or blood loss. Both would take time to set in, and night not be able to disable a attacker.
Matters are a bit complicated. We had a police corps in every municipality and a countrywide police corps. We have "coffee shops" where you can buy cannabis but no-one is allowed to sell them their merchandize, so only criminals can produce cannabis, except the five hemp plants anyone is allowed to grow for his own needs, and sell it to the shops. This leads to a significant growth of the criminal classes so to tackle this problem and to save money the police was reorganized into 25 regional police corpses and a countrywide one. Every police corps was allowed to buy its own software thus ensuring that they couldn't communicate with each other. To solve this problem and to save money we have now only one police corps. This happened over the last twenty years and the result is a sharp decline in the service to the population and a huge waste of money. After the last elections a new government was formed in which the departments of the interior and justice were combined in a single huge incompetent department. So it is no wonder they are having too few policemen who work ineffectively and that don't have the time and resources to train in using their fire arms.
MwRYum
Major
There's a reason to institute a 2-man patrol system instead of solo, so one can safely deploy the non-lethal solution, and be covered by his partner with lethal options at the ready. When you've to deal with hooligans who misinterpret privilege with entitlement, or understood his Bill of Rights too literally, or simply drunk/drugged to have any common sense, a mere baton not going to stop such belligerent subject, and without something like Taser to turn the subject into a shuddering blob of meat on the floor and be no more threat to anyone, the officer got only his service gun - in this case, a dingy pee-shooter that's not so effective in the non-lethal department, and definitely ineffective when comes to lethal force.
Worse still, in China where the tradition of "the size of the service gun at hand is proportionate to the amount of intimidation exerted upon the criminal class" lives on, it doesn't work in the law enforcement's favours.
Taser, despite its limitations, its ability to inflict memory-etching pain to those at the receiving end gives it the reputation, something that gives police officers an edge over the belligerent, but without the use of lethal option. Think about it, with Taser police can subdue a female belligerent from a distance, without her exploiting the chance to falsely accusing the officer molesting her.
So that's why the Type 05 revolver is nothing more than a good intention that's woefully executed, and that's the kindest way of putting it.
Worse still, in China where the tradition of "the size of the service gun at hand is proportionate to the amount of intimidation exerted upon the criminal class" lives on, it doesn't work in the law enforcement's favours.
Taser, despite its limitations, its ability to inflict memory-etching pain to those at the receiving end gives it the reputation, something that gives police officers an edge over the belligerent, but without the use of lethal option. Think about it, with Taser police can subdue a female belligerent from a distance, without her exploiting the chance to falsely accusing the officer molesting her.
So that's why the Type 05 revolver is nothing more than a good intention that's woefully executed, and that's the kindest way of putting it.