Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

Jeff Head said:

The F-35 is going to do fine...watch and see.

It is bringing to the table some very new fighting capabilities that are much more information centric, and which use its very good stealth coupled with its ability to maneuver when it needs it. The SU-35 and the PAK FA, both of which are simply EXCELLENT aircraft, are still geared to the 1980s and 1990s way of fighting...and they are very good at it.

Any aircraft, including the F-22 and F-35, will have to be on their game when going up against either of them.

But I predict, if the F-22 and F-35 are "on their game," and utilize the exceptional qualities they will (and do) possess, that both will be able to establish superiority over both of the Russian aircraft.

The F-22 because it simply can outfight those two even in the 1980s and 1990s style, but also itself brings information and stealth war fighting capabilities to the table that will further enhance its ability to overcome them..

The F-35 because I honestly believe that with its own abilities coupled with its weapons systems will be able to be on par with the others even in the 1980s and 1990s style of fighting...but most especially because it is going to bring info technology and sensor fusion, couple with its own excellent stealth, to an entirely new level and be able to know more about those other aircraft, where they are, what their weaknesses are, and how to get at them well before the competition can perform the same against them.

As it is, with the PAK FA, I agree that it is turning out to apparently not bring as much advancement to the table as the Russians wanted...and therefore they are probably going to be buying more SU-35S aircraft to fill the gap.

At this stage, IMHO, they are going to do that until they can improve the PAK FA and get it where they want it...if they can.

Time will tell.

Click to expand...

I agree with what you said Jeff, however I was responding specifically to a one vs one dogfight as brpught up by posts before
In that realm, EM management plays a much larger role.

Miragedriver said:

I'm really excited about the PAK FA, and based on what I've read from ausairpower and others, the PAK FA won't be as stealthy as the F-35 but it will be able to defeat it by intelligently incorporating the strengths of stealth and maneuverability. I wonder exactly just how far out the PAK FA will be able to detect the F-35.

One was to remember that a major difference between aesa vs pesa radar has to do with how the information is communicated between devices from the antenna, and Irbis E can detect something stealthy by 90km, I would assume PAK FA would detect it at same range as the N036 is an AESA variant of Irbis E, using similar amounts of power.


Back to bottling my Grenache

Click to expand...

Everything depends who you do ask, if you ask Russian industrial sources they affirm the T-50 is as stealthy as F-22, they base that assertion in the fact T-50 uses a lot of composites, 70% of the airframe surface is covered by them and the use of a smart skin, ausairpower saddly has no PAKFA to prove its stealth is inferior or superior because the T-50 has secrets only known by the Russian

b787 said:

Everything depends who you do ask, if you ask Russian industrial sources they affirm the T-50 is as stealthy as F-22, they base that assertion in the fact T-50 uses a lot of composites, 70% of the airframe surface is covered by them and the use of a smart skin, ausairpower saddly has no PAKFA to prove its stealth is inferior or superior because the T-50 has secrets only known by the Russian

Click to expand...

No, it does NOT depend on who you ask, all these assessments are based on real world data, and also on the actions of others. Talk is cheap, and it is an effective means of "misleading".

In the real world, people on both sides know their capabilities, and the capabilities of others. Those of us who do know some of those people, know who tells the truth, and who "embellishes" the truth with lots of icing and "bloviating". How do these things "go down" in the real world?, we do intercept Russian bombers with our airplanes, to date no T-50s have flown out to "intercept" any of our "spy" planes.

What really does matter here, is they burnt up ONE of their test fleet, and they now have 4-6 flying prototypes, several of which have had "cracking, stress issues", no doubt a major reason the initial buy has be "cut back". So they lost 15% of test aircraft in ONE incident??? are you getting a little bigger picture here? the buy was "cut", because the airplane is "under performing". Yes we break test airplanes all the time, but we drill and fix em, and fly em to their limits so we can break some more. Then we redesign, rebuild, and bring the old birds back in and "mod them".

Over half of the F-35 fleet are now coded "operational", that tells us all something in the real world of 150 aircraft and climbing, and we are trying to buy 300-500 aircraft in the near term, that my friend is the real world, where "actions speak louder than words". In closing remember the little Su-47, world changer, very dangerous, the sky is falling?? really? one little airplane? NOT happenin.

Can you confirm T-50 would not have S shaped air inlets ? and same question for J-20 also.

Air Force Brat said:

In the real world, people on both sides know their capabilities, and the capabilities of others.

Click to expand...

like i said everything depends who you do ask, you are free to believe what you want to believe, but ROSTEC affirms PAKFA has stealth technologies to be a match to any other 5th generation aircraft, if you want to believe it, it is okay, if not well you won`t stop ROSTEC from saying what they say

The T-50 Fighter will feature even greater stealth capabilities
Thanks to a new design solution the PAK FA fighter has moved ahead of the American F-22 in its stealth capabilities

Click to expand...

In the end...what actually happens with the PAK FA , their numbers, their performance, etc. will tell the tale.

The F-22 is out there, operational, and performing. When unchained during exercises it defeats all comers.

The PAK FA is yet to even have one production aircraft produced, so it is pointless to try and definitively say specific things in comparison.

One thing we know...the F-22 is the most stealthy, most advanced, highest performing operational fighter flying.

Right now, we can make some pretty good statements about the two from what we do know...but we cannot make definitive comparisons because the PAK FA is simply not a finished, production, operational product yet.

I do know this, from an IR standpoint, the PAKFA has those big hot engines poking out the rear end, and I think that is the way it is going to stay in production. At some point, IMHO, Russian needs to do something about that design characteristic. But that's just my opinion.

FORBIN said:

Can you confirm T-50 would not have S shaped air inlets ? and same question for J-20 also.

Click to expand...

There are better pictures but this should do.

We will never know until well trained American pilots fly against Russian pilots and not a proxy nation against the F-22 or the PAK FA. Proxy nations never obtain the “good stuff” or the proper training to take advantage of the aircraft's full capabilities.

Just as we will not know if the JF-17 if a fair match for the Tejas until they actually confront each other. Until then it is all educated assumptions based on what companies release and speculation.


Back to bottling my Grenache

Can you confirm T-50 would not have S shaped air inlets ?

Click to expand...

Broccoli said:

There are better pictures but this should do.

Click to expand...

No confirmed

Miragedriver said:

We will never know until well trained American pilots fly against Russian pilots and not a proxy nation against the F-22 or the PAK FA. Proxy nations never obtain the “good stuff” or the proper training to take advantage of the aircraft's full capabilities.

Just as we will not know if the JF-17 if a fair match for the Tejas until they actually confront each other. Until then it is all educated assumptions based on what companies release and speculation.


Back to bottling my Grenache

Click to expand...

Well Mirage Bruda, fortunately that's not true, and if that scenario were to come into play, which airplane was the best would be the least of our worries? The US military has whole squadrons of "aggressors", trained and "indoctrinated" in the Soviet/Russian way of doing things. They hang out together, wear Russian flight gear, and have their aircraft painted to replicate the Russian aircraft.

In certain instances they even use Russian aircraft, radars, etc, etc, when they go out to fly, they are going to kill the bad guys, yep, US forces who are going to try to kill them, it is as real as it gets. They do this at tremendous effort and expense because it works. People fight to win, and sometimes they die, we know its gonna happen, and its a necessary fact of life if we plan on winning, and we do plan on winning!

So every time we go out to probe the borders of the "dark continent", we gain a greater understanding of "who" or "whom" the bad boys are, and a much greater knowledge of their equipment, radars, weapons, etc, etc, where they come from, who they are, and how they fly?? So yes although there are assumptions made by all, there is also "critical analysis" of a vast wealth of data, some of that gained by legitimate means, some the old fashioned way by going to have a look?

Everybody on this forum knows a lot about US equipment, there is a reason for that, the US military works for a civilian government, "of the people, for the people, and by the people". and yes that means exactly what it says, we don't like war, we don't as a Nation covet what other people have, if we do, we pay "cashola", because that my friend, is "the American Way". And Bear Bryant or some football sage, ("yes a real football with a sharp point on each end") wisely opined, "the best defense, is a good offense".

Y"all have a great day in the Lord, because I know I'm gonna have one! and thanks for being here bruda, you are a sharpened steel, in a dull world! None of us should base our concerns or our National sovereignty on add copy from defense contractors, theirs or ours! Submitted most respectfully to you my brother, the king of fair play!

oh, and I will add that I love the T-50, and am also a big fan of that aircraft, seeing Russia's current leadership practice what I would refer to as "brinksmanship" has been "saddening".