China's overland Silk Road and Maritime Silk Road Thread

delft

Brigadier
IMO India can always be more proactive - why not have your own OBOR? You are closer to the middle east and Europe than China. One try to maneuver oneself into strategic advantage and not expect others to provide the opportunity.

Maybe looking from the above perspective will lead to revelation that: OBOR is not some sort of end all be all secret plan cooked up by the Chinese government, a sort of isolated checkmate. It is an extension and culmination of a series of previous ground works laid that paid off (and in return shall itself provide further opportunities).

Stuff like establishing diplomatic detente with the US

Stuff like opening up Chinese market economy

Stuff like raising education level and workforce competitiveness of the country

Stuff like good economic management, and experimentation of SEZs.

Stuff like extensive focus on infrastructure developments and transportation improvements, high speed rails etc.

Stuff like a stable governance, settling not all but many border disputes, warming of ties with Russia.

and more.
But the main task for the diplomats is solving the border questions with Pakistan and China. This is more important for the development of India than the exact locations of those borders. See for example what Ambassador Bhadrakumar writes on these questions.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
| Mon Jul 6, 2015 12:13am EDT
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Rivals Pakistan, India to start process of joining China security bloc
BEIJING
Nuclear-armed rivals Pakistan and India will start the process of joining a security bloc led by China and Russia at a summit in Russia later this week, a senior Chinese diplomat said on Monday, the first time the grouping has expanded since it was set up in 2001.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) groups China, Russia and the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, while India, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and Mongolia are observers.

"As the influence of the SCO's development has expanded, more and more countries in the region have brought up joining the SCO," Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Cheng Guoping told a news briefing."...India and Pakistan's admission to the SCO will play an important role in the SCO's development it will play a constructive role in pushing for the improvement of their bilateral relations."

India and Pakistan have fought three wars since 1947, two of them over the divided Muslim-majority region of Kashmir which they both claim in full but rule in part. Pakistan also believes India is supporting separatists in resource-rich Baluchistan province, as well as militants fighting the state.

The SCO was originally formed to fight threats posed by radical Islam and drug trafficking from neighboring Afghanistan.

Cheng said that the summit, to be attended by Chinese President Xi Jinping, would also discuss security in Afghanistan.

Beijing says separatist groups in the far western region of Xinjiang, home to the Muslim Uighur minority, are seeking to form their own state called East Turkestan and have links with militants in Central Asia as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan.

China says that Uighur militants, operating at the East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), has also been working with Islamic State.

"It can be said that ETIM certainly has links with the Islamic State, and has participated in relevant terrorist activities. China is paying close attention to this, and will have security cooperation with relevant countries," Cheng said.



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Ultra

Junior Member
Perhaps a slightly perverse aspect of the OBOR is the element of economic coercion in the larger spectrum of geopolitical situation in south Asia. For example the OBOR invests significantly in Pakistan as opposed to India which, perhaps, one can safely assume would pay significantly higher return on capital invested. I don't think this strategy of giving India the miss is going to work out in the long term given india's vast and rapidly maturing markets and a very favorable position (geographically) in south Asia and the IOR. for me, some of these aspects will prevent the OBOR from being successful to the level it envisages!!



The reason is simple, India is very hostile to China. Even the indian general public. There were many polls conducted in recent years which showed Indian public are distrustful and hostile to Chinese and China. For many Indians they view China and chinese as mortal enemy so for Chinese government to even include India in their plan is already a massive achievement in understanding already. If the situation is reversed, India would not even even consider that.

Many indian generals throughout the years had talked about wars with China as inevitable - and the media in India play up the China threat whenever they can.

Looking at most of the Indian commentators here or around the internet, they have nothing good to say about Chinese or China, and it is mostly criticism or snide remarks which shows how hostile they are. On the other hand, most of the Chinese aren't even aware of the hostility Indians have against Chinese - because most of them can't read english, and most of them are oblivious to the 1962 border war. I think most of the Chinese have far more friendly and favourable view of India for their cultural transmission (buddhism for example) to China.

So let me ask you again, why should China even need to consider India in the first place? Why should China invest in a hostile nation to modernize that's detrimental to China's future?


To me, I think investing in Pakistan is a no brainer. Pakistan is the closest ally, a strong Pakistan also benefits the region as it becomes more peaceful when it is economically stable - offering more job opportunities for the disfranchised youth will help stablize Pakistan, raising living standards will give the radical islamist little chance to lure the disfranchised youth to their radical ideologies. Pakistan could potentially be transformed to something like South Korea or Japan - just like American helped transformed both countries by investing heavily in these countries decades ago.
 
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delft

Brigadier
The reason is simple, India is very hostile to China. Even the indian general public. There were many polls conducted in recent years which showed Indian public are distrustful and hostile to Chinese and China. For many Indians they view China and chinese as mortal enemy so for Chinese government to even include India in their plan is already a massive achievement in understanding already. If the situation is reversed, India would not even even consider that.

Many indian generals throughout the years had talked about wars with China as inevitable - and the media in India play up the China threat whenever they can.

Looking at most of the Indian commentators here or around the internet, they have nothing good to say about Chinese or China, and it is mostly criticism or snide remarks which shows how hostile they are. On the other hand, most of the Chinese aren't even aware of the hostility Indians have against Chinese - because most of them can't read english, and most of them are oblivious to the 1962 border war. I think most of the Chinese have far more friendly and favourable view of India for their cultural transmission (buddhism for example) to China.

So let me ask you again, why should China even need to consider India in the first place? Why should China invest in a hostile nation to modernize that's detrimental to China's future?
For one thing because India is going to be a member of SCO, together with Pakistan. The economic future of India lies with Asia, not with US. India needs to modernize its railway transport internally and get outside connections with Kunming and Lhasa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam. The wish to detach Tibet from China, inherited by some Indians from the British colonists was already impractical a century ago and absurd today, as is the fear that China could think to profit from taking over the Tibetan part of India.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
For one thing because India is going to be a member of SCO, together with Pakistan. The economic future of India lies with Asia, not with US. India needs to modernize its railway transport internally and get outside connections with Kunming and Lhasa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam. The wish to detach Tibet from China, inherited by some Indians from the British colonists was already impractical a century ago and absurd today, as is the fear that China could think to profit from taking over the Tibetan part of India.

Indian hostility towards China is far more deep rooted than the practical and historical reasons.

The primary reasons Indians tend to be so hostile towards China is:
1) China's close friendship with their long time enemy and rival Pakistan
2) The fact that China eclipse them in pretty much every way imaginable or measureable

Point 1 is pretty straight forward and easy to understand. But it is also not insurmountable. America supports Taiwan, but that doesn't in itself get in the way of good relationship between America or China (although it most certainly doesn't help!).

However, there isn't anything like the almost universal and cultural hostility towards American in China as there is animosity of Indians towards Chinese.

So Point 2 is, I think where the meat of the issue is.

Even amongst siblings, great animosity could build up if one sibling is constantly living in the shadow of the other, and there is no sibling love between India and China.

In many ways, India is the Poster Child of western ideals and philosophies on what a good developing country should be. It was democracy, free press, open markets, free floating currency the whole shebang.

But China is far and away the bigger success story.

Obviously Indians cannot question those cornerstones of western values like democracy, free pressure, open markets etc, perish the thought! So that leaves little room for self-examination on what India might do better, so instead the only explanation left available to Indians is to instead blame China.

I think there is a pervasive sense of injustice in India, that somehow China is unfairly stealing their moment and showing them up every chance it gets.

The very fact that the Chinese government and the overwhelming majority of ordinary Chinese does not really see India as a threat or competitor just adds insult to injury in Indian eyes.

With the way things are going, those Indian generals and the chicken-hawks in the Indian press are in danger of making their prophecies self-fulfilling.

If they keep showering China with hostility, it will be inevitable that such hostility will be registered in Beijing, and causes China to take precautionary measures, which will be seized upon as proof of Chinese perfidy by those same people who's hostility triggered China's response in the first place.
 

delft

Brigadier
Even so, India is about to become a member of SCO, together with Pakistan, which will open ways for Indian companies to make profits in Asia which will lead to those companies pushing in the other direction.
India inherited from the Raj a bureaucracy that was the pride of the British and that has maintained its failings through nearly 70 years of independence.
 

JayBird

Junior Member
I have to agree with Ultra and Wolfy. The most vocal anti-China netizens I come across online are usually ethnic Indians no matter if they are from Singapore, Canada , U.S or India. I was kind of surprised by their hostility towards China/Chinese. I don't have any bad feelings towards India until reading all these China bashing Indian commentators with anything regarding China.
 
I think all this talk of an innate and extreme Indian hatred of China is both a misperception and a mishandling of the situation if you are in any way for people to get along. Unfortunately among a subset of Indians, as among others including a subset of Chinese, colonialism perpetuates its legacy of self-hatred, disdain for others in the same straits, while putting the abuser on a pedestal. People who are minorities outside of their home countries are also susceptible to such behavior. There are also third parties with that subset of Indians egging on the general Indian population, if not the world at large, to be unreasonably hostile to China and Chinese people. To dwell on the provocation and to give it weight is to fall for it.

As mentioned in earlier posts, there are real obstacles to India and China being bosom buddies but none of them are at the can't be friends level. At the same time there are real opportunities for India and China to be colleagues and work friends which may lead to something more. Both sides need to put more effort into working out differences at the same time as developing opportunities to work together on common interests. India joining the SCO and China reaching out to include India in the Silk Road initiative are both steps in the right direction but both have a lot more beneficial potential with each other to realize.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
More talks needed on China-Turkey high-speed railway

More-talks-needed-on-China-Turkey-high-speed-railway.jpg

More talks needed on China-Turkey high-speed railway :Further negotiations on issues including geopolitics, technological standards and funding are needed for a high-speed railway China is planning between the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region and Eastern Europe, according to experts who were interviewed by China Daily.

The 6,000-km link will start in Xinjiang and pass through Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Turkey to Bulgaria, said Zhao Xiaogang, former chairman of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Co (CSR), a leading Chinese industrial manufacturer and exporter.

Zhao is also an adviser to the China Institute for Innovation and Development Strategy.
Passenger train speeds will reach 200 kph and freight trains 160 kph, Zhao told the daily.
Investment in the line will be about $150 billion, Zhao said, adding that it could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed by 2030.

“It can be regarded as a new Silk Road,” he said.

The pace of railway construction in Xinjiang has increased significantly since September, when Chinese President Xi Jinping raised the idea of a Silk Road economic belt. He proposed reviving the ancient trade route connecting China, Central Asia and Europe.

Zhao also said China is considering a 3,000-km line from Yunnan province that would pass through Laos, Thailand and Malaysia to Singapore.

Total investment would be about $75 billion and the project would boost the GDP of China and related countries by $375 billion. The project could be largely finished in 2020 and fully completed in 2025, he said.
 
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