i though they using Chinese engine ws-13
JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Blackstone
Brigadier
Maybe in JF-17, Block 1138, but not right now.
I don't think it is fair to compare Pakistan to India on the terms of development. Pakistan have partnered up with China to develop its weapons, just like how China partnered up with the USSR in the 1950s. Lest we forget how challenging it was for China to develop arms by herself after the sino-soviet split. Pride does come at a cost, India could have taken it in steps like how Korea with trainers first then fighter jets with lockheed partnership ; but they didn't go that route due to US restrictions.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
India got plenty of foreign help on the LCA, most notably French and Russian I believe.
The Indians were smart enough to realize they couldn't do it all alone, and were not shy about asking for help and choosing imported kit they couldn't make themselves (at least eventually), which is good, and not where it all fell down.
The LCA would have been a fine program had they just committed and bought some instead of keep moving the goal posts and forcing redesigns on it.
The LCA, as first conceived and designed, as a cheap indigenous Mig21 replacement with BVR and decent agility would have served India well, and may have even been an export success.
A twin seat version could have also served as the basis of an AJT that India could have bought at a fraction of the price of their BAE Hawks.
Realistically speaking, the LCA should have been put into service a decade ago, and the IAF should be looking at its MLU options right now and starting the conceptual design on its replacement rather than still re-designing it with a view of trying to get it inducted.
They pasted the "build it or scrap it" point about 5 years ago. Now, there are no good options left, and whatever they decide will be sub-optimal.
It is valid if we limit the scope of your statement in procurement only. And I have already said what you just said (that they are not in the same class) above in my original post, so no need to remind me again.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Well anyone who has trained with PAF top guns will know how capable the fighters pilots are and the JF-17 gives them that extra edge
Someone was taking about the COIN operations and F16 and AH-1, no doubt both these platforms are good but AH-1 is very outdated in PA many are damaged and now need badly replaced
F16 costs a fortunate to fly and parts are expensive but it does the job well
We have seen LS-6 and LT-2 precision bombs alongside the WMD-7 targeting pod at air shows, air chief has talked about it and the last video clearly stated that WMD-7 was to be fitted to block III along with ASEA
So no question about it JF-17 will do precision strikes, I just wonder how precise? Laser guided bombs are weather dependent whereas satellite guided bombs are not so it's great that JF-17 will be carrying both, but hitting a moving target with the sniper pods on the F16 can be done at high altitude off bore sight and poor weather just don't think WMD-7 will have that kind of capability, but then JF-17 will be doing all roles that PAF needs whereas F16 is limited
So Weill just have to wait and see how block iii shapes up
And lastly although I agree combat record does not translate to exports but that is sadly the case with many fighters, until the Rafale had performed in the Libyan campaign no country was giving it a second look now Dassault has a bag full of orders after they proved it during operation in Libya
Someone was taking about the COIN operations and F16 and AH-1, no doubt both these platforms are good but AH-1 is very outdated in PA many are damaged and now need badly replaced
F16 costs a fortunate to fly and parts are expensive but it does the job well
We have seen LS-6 and LT-2 precision bombs alongside the WMD-7 targeting pod at air shows, air chief has talked about it and the last video clearly stated that WMD-7 was to be fitted to block III along with ASEA
So no question about it JF-17 will do precision strikes, I just wonder how precise? Laser guided bombs are weather dependent whereas satellite guided bombs are not so it's great that JF-17 will be carrying both, but hitting a moving target with the sniper pods on the F16 can be done at high altitude off bore sight and poor weather just don't think WMD-7 will have that kind of capability, but then JF-17 will be doing all roles that PAF needs whereas F16 is limited
So Weill just have to wait and see how block iii shapes up
And lastly although I agree combat record does not translate to exports but that is sadly the case with many fighters, until the Rafale had performed in the Libyan campaign no country was giving it a second look now Dassault has a bag full of orders after they proved it during operation in Libya
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I'd caution on the Rafale point. Yes, the orders started coming in after the combat operations, but I think the fact that the French gov't is offering pretty good financial terms (i.e. an actual payment plan to Egypt and a guarantee to French banks to pay in case Egypt can't) is playing a big part. As for India and Qatar, I think their relatively strong ties with Dassault must have helped the company drive the Rafale.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Just a few minor points to raise, GPS guided weapons are not weather dependent, but you need fixed GPS co-ordinates for them to work, and I have not heard of any such weapon that could have its point of impact updated in flight to the extent that they can be used against moving targets.
TBH, I don't really think you need fastjets for COIN work, the Americans certainly doesn't seem to think so, having outsourced the bulk of that work to the UCAV fleet, which I suspect is also where the PLAAF and PAF are heading.
F16s and JF17s would be needed to hit time sensitive high value targets that might disappear by the time a drone arrives on station, or if you are fighting a conventional war against a conventional foe who have air power and air defences that you need to penetrate on your way to your target.
But against insurgents, UCAVs are just more cost effective.
Chinese UCAVs have also demonstrated the ability to engage moving targets with their HJ10 missiles.
If PAF really want to allow their JF17s to be able to hit high speed moving ground targets, they will probably be better off getting the HJ10 integrated onto the aircraft rather than trying to push LGBs beyond what they are designed to do.
IIRC, those recorded sniper pod guided hits on 70mph targets were using Brimstone missiles as well rather than LGBs, so I think the key is the weapon, not the pod.
janjak desalin
Junior Member
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I was also referencing back to post 2114 where he also questioned the ability of Chinese LGBs in engaging fast moving ground targets.
Probably not the clearest way I could have done it, but mutli-quote doesn't work so well for me.