China's SCS Strategy Thread

P

PanAsian

Major
advill said:
Correct delft - the American Black ships forced Japan to open its markets for trade using gun boat diplomacy. However, it was a blessing in disguise for the Japanese, as the Meiji Emperor realized & encouraged modernization of Japan with Western technology including military weaponries. The Samurais were no match to Western guns. Most major countries have past histories that encouraged domination of others; but such practices should never be emulated. Western countries today are mostly democratic and have learnt bitter lessons of the past.
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Credit goes to Japan for adapting well to the coercion not to the coercion itself.

Most major countries have current events and very recent histories of domination of others. Valid moral point to not emulate that but in this context also a hypocritical sabotage case of do what I say, not what I do, especially if doing what I do can lead to your success.

Western countries being democratic and learning the bitter lessons of the past have some bearing on how they conduct foreign policy but made minimal difference in them wanting domination of others, especially over non-Western countries. The available methods of domination are more varied and subtle these days, the relative cost-to-benefit ratio may not make sense with more blatant methods, and some of the target countries have also evolved to be more resistant to domination.
 
N

nfgc

New Member
Registered Member
Bltizo said:
Indeed, and which navy has the most powerful "gun boats" deployed in the region? Certainly not China...
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This ignores reality.

There have been exigencies for 70 years that prevented great powers from going to the maximum utilisation. The reasons are varied but do not matter.

The *actual* usage of power is far less than the ideal or maximum possessed.

As with all empires, that one in the Western Hemisphere shall fade, and not when anyone expects it. It always comes as surprise, the supporters of the existing structure *always* say the same things, always claim that they have the most powerful force. There are no exceptions. This always happens.

Chinese empires averaged 205 to 239 years. We are at the edge of the envelope now.

The issues that we have, or more specifically the west have about China is that, China had to adopt the nation-state model after the Westphalia model.
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Nations that are not 'the west' have issues with what is ongoing. Malaysia is not 'the west'. Vietnam is not 'the west'. ASEANA nations that agree with China have been influenced with massive development funds pumped into their capitals by Beijing.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
advill said:
Correct delft - the American Black ships forced Japan to open its markets for trade using gun boat diplomacy. However, it was a blessing in disguise for the Japanese, as the Meiji Emperor realized & encouraged modernization of Japan with Western technology including military weaponries. The Samurais were no match to Western guns. Most major countries have past histories that encouraged domination of others; but such practices should never be emulated. Western countries today are mostly democratic and have learnt bitter lessons of the past.
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Advill, you say Commodore Perry's gunboat diplomacy was a blessing for Japan, how about for the rest of Asia? As Japan modernized ahead of other Asian nations, what did the Japanese do with their unrivaled power? Did they spread peace, love, and democracy all over Asia? Was it a blessing for most Asians Japan became a juggernaut? How about for Singapore? Was it a blessing for them too? Did they build Commodore Perry shrines to honor the blessings he brought?

Also, what bitter lessons of the past have Western great and medium powers learned?
 
A

advill

Junior Member
The debate can never end when it covers historical and present issues relating to the US, China, Japan and various other countries including Western, Communist , Socialist etc. However, I believe when there is greed for power, arrogance & the domination over weaker countries, there bound to be unfavourable reactions that could eventually lead to hostilities. I am not going to be drawn into discussing or be involved issue that will effect sensitivities or score points. This is not the place for this blog.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
advill said:
The debate can never end when it covers historical and present issues relating to the US, China, Japan and various other countries including Western, Communist , Socialist etc. However, I believe when there is greed for power, arrogance & the domination over weaker countries, there bound to be unfavourable reactions that could eventually lead to hostilities. I am not going to be drawn into discussing or be involved issue that will effect sensitivities or score points. This is not the place for this blog.
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Yes, this isn't the place for pointless soliloquy, so let's dispense with your Western nations have learned bitter lessons bullshit, because they still act like they haven't learned it. Realpolitik is as strong now as it ever was, and there's no enlightened Eastern, Western, or any other '-ern' powers in the world.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys...really?

I mean...seriously? What's going on, a weekend lapse in SD Rules on the SCS Strategy Thread?

All of you know the rules.

This thread is about the Chinese South China Sea Strategy. Let's talk about what China is doing and plans to do in the South China Sea...not some sociological opinions about the history of East/West and other relationships.

There will be no end to that...and it is for that reason that just such discussions are verboten here on SD.

Any more and I WILL issue reprimands and suspensions and delete every single one of the posts that went down that track.

Remember...Buford is watching.

WalkingTall3.jpg

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION.
 
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C

confusion

Junior Member
Registered Member
In other news, much milder, relatively, actions taken by China near Reed Bank. 1. China is certainly ramping up its claims to the SCS. 2. The Philippines is utterly powerless to stop anyone, much less China, from doing what they want in the SCS.

Philippines Finds Chinese Buoys in Disputed Waters
The Philippine navy recently found a large steel marker bearing Chinese inscriptions and hundreds of yellow buoys in waters near the Reed Bank, an area of the South China Sea where Manila has long explored for oil and gas, Philippine naval sources said.

One source, a sailor, told Reuters he was on a fishing boat being used by the navy that discovered the rubber buoys and the floating steel marker at the end of May. The buoys stretched "as far as the eye could see", the sailor said.

He said there was no evidence Chinese ships had placed them near the Reed Bank, which is also claimed by Beijing.

But efforts to remove the buoys were thwarted by the sudden appearance of a Chinese naval patrol vessel, prompting the Philippine boat to flee, the sailor said in an interview in Puerto Princesa, capital of Palawan province, the Philippine military's jumping off point to the disputed South China Sea.

The Reed Bank lies 80-90 nautical miles (148-167 km) west of the Philippines in what Manila regards as its 200-nautical mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

"Our boys tried to cut and remove the buoys but a large Chinese patrol ship emerged on the horizon and they hurriedly left," the sailor said, adding it was unclear what the Chinese inscriptions on the steel marker said.

The discovery was confirmed by two senior Philippine naval officials. One said the buoys were still there when the navy checked in the middle of June, although the steel marker was gone. No attempt was made to remove the buoys, he said.

The three sources declined to be identified because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

Philippine military officials said it was the first time in recent years that such markers had been found near the Reed Bank.

The Spratly islands, where China is flexing its naval muscles as it builds seven man-made islands on top of coral reefs, lie to the southwest of Reed Bank, further away from the Philippines.

...

Philippine military strategists have long worried that China wants to occupy the Reed Bank.

One air force general said he suspected the buoys were put there so Chinese fishermen could tether their boats, then if the Philippine navy tried to evict the fishermen, Chinese coastguard ships would appear to protect them.

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