The Sino-Russian Strategic Partnership starts to get serious!

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I don't disagree at all that china is ahead in drone tech however I consider that a niche product. Russia is lacking in that area probably due to lack of resources and available industries concentrating in that area of their military establishment.

SSNs, SSBNs and ICBMs are far more niche than drones, which are positively becoming mainstream to the point of directly competing with manned assets for resources, and winning.

But the general principle applies to both.

China has been spending and investing mainly in conventional weapons, like drones and fighters and warships, whereas Russia has been focusing their resources on more strategic assets like SSNs, SSBNs, ICBMs, nukes bombers and the like.

As such, there are a lot of synergies between the two that could be exploited to hugely benefit both, whereby China provides Russia with top class conventional weaponry while Russia helps to fill hopes with China's strategic assets.

The main stumbling block has been Russian pride in buying weapons from the old top client, and also concerns regarding the transfer of strategic military assets.

It remains to be seen if those constraints could be overcome to make such transfers to happen.

You have to remember that despite all the investment, it is only in recent years that China has started to spend big on SSNs and SSBNs, so it will take time for all that investment to pay off.

In addition, I think there is a structural problem with China's nuclear sub builders in that they are treated as a national strategic assets, and as such granted special privileges that means they have not had the same competitive pressures applied to them as China's other shipyards have endured, and so are probably a lot less efficient and behind the times in terms of the uptake of the latest technologies and techniques.

Given how good Chinese SSKs have gotten, and the massive investment China is making in civilian nuclear energy, China has all the necessary tools, skills and resources to make world class SSNs and SSBNs.

So hopefully we will see big decreases in noise levels with every new boat type launched.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
China has been spending and investing mainly in conventional weapons, like drones and fighters and warships, whereas Russia has been focusing their resources on more strategic assets like SSNs, SSBNs, ICBMs, nukes bombers and the like.

Given how good Chinese SSKs have gotten, and the massive investment China is making in civilian nuclear energy, China has all the necessary tools, skills and resources to make world class SSNs and SSBNs.

So hopefully we will see big decreases in noise levels with every new boat type launched.
I think the PLAN is making strong progress in its SSN and SSBN fleet, and I agree, as successive new classes come out and continue to show that improvement, we will definitely see less levels of talk about their deficiencies.

I will take exception to one point,.

While an SSBN is certainly a strategic system...SSNs are not.

It is true they are much larger and complicated systems than drones and so are not in the same league or category as a drone. But in the sense of weapons systems critical to normal, non-strategic warfare, the SSN is a critical component.

Nations that can built them in numbers have a decided advantage in the blue water particularly. Which advantage is something China desires and is why, of course, China is progressing as they are with their SSN prograam and will, I am sure, have quite a few of them before all is said and done.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
SSNs, SSBNs and ICBMs are far more niche than drones, which are positively becoming mainstream to the point of directly competing with manned assets for resources, and winning.

But the general principle applies to both.

China has been spending and investing mainly in conventional weapons, like drones and fighters and warships, whereas Russia has been focusing their resources on more strategic assets like SSNs, SSBNs, ICBMs, nukes bombers and the like.

As such, there are a lot of synergies between the two that could be exploited to hugely benefit both, whereby China provides Russia with top class conventional weaponry while Russia helps to fill hopes with China's strategic assets.

The main stumbling block has been Russian pride in buying weapons from the old top client, and also concerns regarding the transfer of strategic military assets.

It remains to be seen if those constraints could be overcome to make such transfers to happen.

You have to remember that despite all the investment, it is only in recent years that China has started to spend big on SSNs and SSBNs, so it will take time for all that investment to pay off.

In addition, I think there is a structural problem with China's nuclear sub builders in that they are treated as a national strategic assets, and as such granted special privileges that means they have not had the same competitive pressures applied to them as China's other shipyards have endured, and so are probably a lot less efficient and behind the times in terms of the uptake of the latest technologies and techniques.

Given how good Chinese SSKs have gotten, and the massive investment China is making in civilian nuclear energy, China has all the necessary tools, skills and resources to make world class SSNs and SSBNs.

So hopefully we will see big decreases in noise levels with every new boat type launched.

I agree with the pride thing afterall it is also pride and ego that drives this world in almost all facet of life if you think about it. I believe part of that pride emanates from the fact that they know they have the ability and knowledge to do so but just can't due to lack of capital and supporting infrastructure.
 
Sino-Russian Partnership - Pork and Agriculture

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By Mark Godfrey, 25-Jun-2015

A unit of China’s top pork processor has shipped 40 tons of pork overland to Russia. The Wangkui Shuanghui Beidahuang Food Co plant in northerly Heilongjiang province shipped the pork, worth US$1.2 million, over the border in early June, according to the Entry & Exit Inspection and Quarantine Association (also known as CIQ) which administers China’s Customs inspections.

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think the PLAN is making strong progress in its SSN and SSBN fleet, and I agree, as successive new classes come out and continue to show that improvement, we will definitely see less levels of talk about their deficiencies.

I will take exception to one point,.

While an SSBN is certainly a strategic system...SSNs are not.

It is true they are much larger and complicated systems than drones and so are not in the same league or category as a drone. But in the sense of weapons systems critical to normal, non-strategic warfare, the SSN is a critical component.

Nations that can built them in numbers have a decided advantage in the blue water particularly. Which advantage is something China desires and is why, of course, China is progressing as they are with their SSN prograam and will, I am sure, have quite a few of them before all is said and done.

While technically speaking SSNs are not strictly a strategic asset, given the technologies involved and how easy it would be to apply that to SSBN design and production (as well as the fact that one of, if not THE most core functions of SSNs is to hunt down and kill enemy SSBNs if called upon to do so), pretty much everyone treats them as such, certainly in terms of international sales, which is what this discussion is primarily focused upon.

Of course, there is certainly precedent, with Russia's "leasing" of that Akula to India, but as far as I am aware, that is the only international transfer of SSN in history, so I treat it more as an outlier anomaly.

I certainly do not see that deal as any indication that Russia is ready to share its latest SSN technology with China.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well, SSNs certainly defend their own SSBNs, and shadow potential adversary SSBNs as often as they can. But actually attacking any nation's SSBN is itself a strategic act and would not be considered unless either the offending SSBN was preparing to launch a nuclear attack, or the nation owning the SSN was itself prepared for a 1st strike.

As soon as you attack an SSBN, you can figure there is going to be a nuclear exchange.

But that is not at all the primary purpose of SSNs.

The US, Russia, England and France use them as, and I believe China and India will use them as:

1) Powerful escorts to naval task forces, particularly carrier task forces.
2) Intelligence gathering patrol along potential hostile coasts and sea lanes.
3) As hunter killers against:
- a) High Value hostile Navy Targets
- b) Hostile commercial shipping (particularly energy, material, etc.)
- c) Enemy attack subs.
4) To insert special forces on potentially hostile shores.
5) To sabotage communications on sea floors.
6) To lay mines.
7) Etc.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I agree with the pride thing afterall it is also pride and ego that drives this world in almost all facet of life if you think about it. I believe part of that pride emanates from the fact that they know they have the ability and knowledge to do so but just can't due to lack of capital and supporting infrastructure.
Specially the last sentence is very true. It is easier for a person going upwards to live with the fact of being lower today, it is extremely difficult, frastrating and feeling humiliated for a person going downwards to accept the reality of falling even the person is still above others. This mentality is human nature, not only Russians.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
China's mega-farm… for 100,000 cows: World's biggest dairy being built to supply Russian demand after Moscow boycotted EU exports

Farm in Mudanjiang City will have 60,000 more cows than current biggest
Russia wants milk as it's boycotting EU countries' milk and dairy exports
It will be 50 times bigger than the UK's biggest, which has 2,000 cows

100,000-cow-power dairy farm in China to feed Russian market

Updated: 2015-07-09 11:14

China Daily USA


They say that money is the mother's milk of politics. In this case, it's just the milk.
A 100,000-cow dairy farm is being constructed in Northeast China to supply the Russian market with milk and cheese, in what can be construed as agricultural geopolitics.

Russia has extended an import ban of most agricultural products from the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia and Norway until August 2016, in retaliation for recently renewed Western economic sanctions over Russia's military moves in Ukraine and Crimea.

The new dairy site is in Mudanjiang City, Heilongjiang province, Zhang Chuntszyao, chairman of the Association of Applied Economics of Heilongjiang province told Interfax on Monday.
Russia's ban was originally scheduled to expire in August, but was extended in late June in response to the renewal of Western sanctionsthrough January.

It will be the world's largest dairy farm and will be funded with 1 billion yuan ($161 million) from Russian and Chinese investors. China's Zhongding Dairy Farming and Russia's Severny Bur will work together on the project.

China already is home to the world's largest dairy operation, a 40,000-cow unit of the Maanshan, Anhui province-based China Modern Dairy Holdings Ltd, which operates 24 farms throughout the mainland.

The largest US dairy farm is in Fair Oaks, Indiana, where 30,000 cows ply their trade.
Earlier this month, China's Huae Sinban Co signed an agreement to lease 115,000 hectares (284,000 acres) in Russia's Transbaikal region for feedstock, according to state-run Russia Today. The company is expected to invest about $450 million in the project over the next half century.Huae Sinban plans to lease up to 200,000 hectares in Russia if the first stage of the project from 2015-2018 works out.

Mansel Raymond, chairman of the Milk Working Party Copa-Cogeca, an organization representing European agricultural groups, said the ban and the Sino-Russian dairy venture are a concern for EU dairy farmers.

"The scale of Chinese investment in dairy production is vast," Raymond told UK-based Farmers Weekly. "I wonder now whether we will ever get the Russian milk market back.
"Building a 100,000-cow dairy farm is simply mind-boggling. If the project goes ahead and the 100,000 head represents milking cows, this unit alone could produce 800 million liters a year (about 200 million gallons).

"In that case, it would equate to 100,000 tons of cheese – and that would mean this unit alone could produce about 30 percent of our previous exports to Russia," Raymond added.
In August 2014, when the Russian agricultural-product sanctions were first imposed, they were estimated to affect about one-tenth of Russia's $43 billion in yearly food imports, straining both foreign suppliers and Russian consumers, the Los Angeles Times reported.

"The food embargo by Russia that began in August of 2014 impacts approximately $1 billion of the $1.4 billion of ag and food products that the US sold to Russia," David Salmonsen, senior director of congressional relations for the American Farm Bureau Federation, said in an e-mail to China Daily. "Those most impacted are Russian consumers and European farmers who had a large share of food exports to Russia."

EU countries were shipping about $2.7 billion in produce a year to Russia, and the embargo's impact will be felt unevenly among the 28 countries in the EU, analysts said.
"For the larger EU economies - Germany included - the costs are bearable. For some of the smaller EU economies, the pain will be more acute," the Times reported, quoting RBS Capital.
 
Partnership in Financial Services also.

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Gazprombank, UnionPay International sign agreement
Gazprombank and UnionPay International Co. (Ltd) signed an agreement of intent as regards the marketing support of the UnionPay card emission, the bank informed.

The agreement provides for the financial support by UnionPay International of the issue by Gazprombank of 300,000 UnionPay cards before the end of March 2016.

Gazprombank started issuing UnionPay Classic, Gold and Platinum cards in September 2014 and has issued more than 140,000 Gazprombank-UnionPay cards to date.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
No mention of the biggest problem with China food products: brand safety! China is still a developing country in every sense of the word, and just like the US in the century, no not this one, the last century, brand safety was a major problem in America, and once the public had enough, it forced the government to impose real reforms and regulatory agencies. Until that's resolved in China, brand safety will be a continuing issue and no one, especially the people of China, will trust Chinese brands.

The trust takes time, especially when it is baby food we are dealing with. The current biggest dairy farm is also in China, let us not forget. The new farm, being a joint venture with Russians, should put Russians at ease. My country has joint ventures in the neighboring countries and China as well, and we have no qualms with their imports.

So even though we have not heard of new cases of melamine tainted milk, it is still going to take some time to gain everyone's trust.
 
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