The Q-5, J-7, J-8 and older PLAAF aircraft
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thunderchief
Senior Member
@Miragedriver ,
you actually want to create another JF-17 , only with even less powerful engine then RD-93 and on top of it you want modern avionics . Even if you manage to fit AESA radar and IRST, and find enough power for them, how much would such aircraft cost ? You are basically in same predicament as JF-17, customers with money want modern aircraft with modern airframe and engine , those without money are not willing to pay $ 10+ million for an aircraft .
you actually want to create another JF-17 , only with even less powerful engine then RD-93 and on top of it you want modern avionics . Even if you manage to fit AESA radar and IRST, and find enough power for them, how much would such aircraft cost ? You are basically in same predicament as JF-17, customers with money want modern aircraft with modern airframe and engine , those without money are not willing to pay $ 10+ million for an aircraft .
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
Well I think you would be surprised on how many 3rd world nations (mostly in Africa) would be willing to pay 10 or 12 million US in lieu of 20 to 25 million US (JF-17) for a fighter aircraft. Especially when they already have MiG-21s of J-7s and your neighbor does not have anything better.
It fills the ranks and help in a war of attrition.
Granted that it goes without saying that the JF-17 is a much more capable aircraft
thunderchief
Senior Member
Well, I used to think like that, but unfortunately looks like it is not the case . Considering the lack of interest for Bison 10 years ago, or for JL-9 and JF-17 today (and looks like Kfir Block 60 deal for Argentina also failed ) , I would say that new cheap second-rate multirole fighter is actually not much in demand . Even medium-sized and medium priced fighters like Mig-29SMT didn't score much of the sales lately . Astonishingly, but relatively poor countries seem to prefer heavy fighters like Su-30 .
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Just to get off topic a second, Why do you think the SU-27/30 is having so much success? It is a larger aircraft which demands a high level of maintenance and associated cost. Could it be the reliability, ability to obtain replacement parts, more robust, easier maintenance, acquisition cost (strange since use MiG-29s are cheaper to acquire), or a combination of the above and/or some others.
I know that India has had problems with their Mig-29 and Malaysia was very dissatisfied with the MiGs performance and maintenance. However, nations like Peru and Poland enjoy their MiGs.
Thanks
Back bottling my Grenache
thunderchief
Senior Member
I think it's a "Mercedes effect" , same reason why people in poor countries spend life savings on extravagant cars to impress their neighbors . Until recently Su-30 was actually best fighter in the market (F-22 was not available, Typhoon had mechanically steered radar and Rafale PESA, F-15 & F-16 are inferior by USAF own admission ...) . Also, price is very reasonable and maintenance cost are not that bad ( Russians have completely different maintenance philosophy, with operating costs fluctuating wildly depending on required flight hours per year, and level of readiness) .At the same time, having Su-30 in air force would create image of strength and power , both to impress local population and neighbors (potential rivals) . We must remember that first and foremost role of weapon system is not to participate in actual war, but to prevent and deter armed conflict .
On the other hand, when you buy something like JL-9 , JF-17 , Mig-21 Bison and even Mig-29 SMT you are basically admitting that you have "budget airforce" . Of course, those planes could be good enough for your military needs, but politically they are bland . For untrained eye Mig-21 is a Mig-21, and Mig-29 is a plane that lost badly in all wars it was . And yet, to operate them properly you still need to spend money on maintenance, training, ordnance etc ... Therefore, as we could see, low budget fighters are not generating much of the sales .
Miragedriver
Brigadier
Making JL-9 in Guizhou Aviation Industry Group, 25, Feb. 2015
Back to bottling my Grenache
Back to bottling my Grenache
Miragedriver
Brigadier
I think we may have a winner as an F-5E equivalent
China’s FTC-2000 Upgraded
During the 2012 (Nov. 13-17) in Zhuhai, AVIC unveiled two models of the (Shanying) fighter trainer/attack aircraft. The FTC-2000 is an export variant of the Guizhou JL-9. The two models show that AVIC has made major improvements to the aircraft since 2001 when revelations surfaced that a development program was underway to replace the .
The original FTC-2000, according to the Zhuhai brochure, “can accomplish advanced training of the pilot, conversion training of the 3rd generation fighter and combat training of modified and series aircraft and possesses certain combat capability.”
However, the brochure of the new FTC-2000G (G=modified), adds reconnaissance capabilities to the list. It states the aircraft is a “light multi-purpose aircraft for meeting the demand of training task of fighter pilot as well as tasks of combat and attack in the international market. It has the characteristics of stable performance, strong function, low price, high benefit-ratio, and can accomplish medium/advanced training, tasks of combat and attack. And it can also fulfill combat area reconnaissance and attack impact evaluation with the reconnaissance pod suspended.”
“FTC-2000G appears the latest effort to keep the venerable J-7 () design line alive and available for export to states with very limited defense budgets,” said , senior fellow for military aerospace, UK-based .
“I’ve never been impressed by the FTC-2000, in whatever variant,” said , a defense industry specialist at the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies, , Singapore.
“It’s an old design (looks like the old Super-7), and getting older by the minute. Yeah, you can put recce pods on it and other things, and I suppose (as a two-seater) you could adapt it for air-to-ground missions,” Bitzinger said. “The Chinese have failed to secure any export sales for the (other than Pakistan, which coproduces it), and I have similar skepticism toward the FTC-2000.”
A quick comparison of the technical data reveals the FTC-2000G has more hard points and is heavier, but now has a shorter endurance time
Back to bottling my Grenache
China’s FTC-2000 Upgraded
During the 2012 (Nov. 13-17) in Zhuhai, AVIC unveiled two models of the (Shanying) fighter trainer/attack aircraft. The FTC-2000 is an export variant of the Guizhou JL-9. The two models show that AVIC has made major improvements to the aircraft since 2001 when revelations surfaced that a development program was underway to replace the .
The original FTC-2000, according to the Zhuhai brochure, “can accomplish advanced training of the pilot, conversion training of the 3rd generation fighter and combat training of modified and series aircraft and possesses certain combat capability.”
However, the brochure of the new FTC-2000G (G=modified), adds reconnaissance capabilities to the list. It states the aircraft is a “light multi-purpose aircraft for meeting the demand of training task of fighter pilot as well as tasks of combat and attack in the international market. It has the characteristics of stable performance, strong function, low price, high benefit-ratio, and can accomplish medium/advanced training, tasks of combat and attack. And it can also fulfill combat area reconnaissance and attack impact evaluation with the reconnaissance pod suspended.”
“FTC-2000G appears the latest effort to keep the venerable J-7 () design line alive and available for export to states with very limited defense budgets,” said , senior fellow for military aerospace, UK-based .
“I’ve never been impressed by the FTC-2000, in whatever variant,” said , a defense industry specialist at the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies, , Singapore.
“It’s an old design (looks like the old Super-7), and getting older by the minute. Yeah, you can put recce pods on it and other things, and I suppose (as a two-seater) you could adapt it for air-to-ground missions,” Bitzinger said. “The Chinese have failed to secure any export sales for the (other than Pakistan, which coproduces it), and I have similar skepticism toward the FTC-2000.”
A quick comparison of the technical data reveals the FTC-2000G has more hard points and is heavier, but now has a shorter endurance time
Back to bottling my Grenache
Dear Dongfeng:
I was wondering if you could tell me the external differences between the Soviet Mig.17 and the Chinese J-5/F-5, as can't seem to find any information dealing with the differences.
Bob Hanes - F-102A