South China Sea Strategies for other nations (Not China)

Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I would suggest everyone go and read the UNCLOS itself. Read the history of UNCLOS I, II, and III.

Here is an excellent article explaining it in detail:

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Here's another summary from UNLAWOFTHESEA.ORG

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Here is the direct link to the UNCLOS on the UN Site:

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I have red these now and I believe both Brumby and SamuraiBlue (who have been posting about it on the South China Sea Strategy-Non-Chinese Nations Thread) are correct.

UNCLOS, to which China is a signatory, outlines a very detailed framework of dealing with these very issues to which all signatories have agreed.

It is very specific about historical context, and in the vast majority of cases, sets it aside in favor of this framework. In the very specific and narrow cases it is not set aside, I can not see that these SCS claims would qualify.

So, the nations signing UNCLOS have agreed, by treaty, to a very specific framework of considerations regarding what constitutes, among other things, islands that can claim a territorial surrounding ocean limit. They agree that these definitions will be what is used legally to determine what does and what does not apply.

...and guess what?

Artificial, unnatural constructs on top of reefs and shoals do not warrant a 12-mile territorial limit unless those reefs and shoals naturally stayed above the water line at high tide as Brumby and SamuraiBlue have been explaining.

So, based on what I have read, and also based on the PRC being a signatory, I do not believe they will be able to win a court case claiming a 12-mile territorial limit for any of the reclamation they are doing on reefs and shoals that did not naturally stay above the water line. It does appear that they can get a 500 meter zone for those reclaimed areas according to UNCLOS.

I believe this explains a lot of the reactions we are seeing regarding China's reclamation efforts.

Now, is China going to stop? No way!

Heck, they knew all of this before they started these recent reclamation efforts.

They are betting on the fact, that even with the 500m zone, that as they expand their holdings that no one is going to try and "force" them to stop.

From their perspective, the 12 miles is clearly not the issue. Having those facilities and capabilities in place in those areas of the SCS is the issue...and, as I said earlier, it is fast becoming a fait accompli.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Guys, this is getting out of hand in terms of the arguments and some of the name calling that is entering in.

I am closing the thread for 24 hours for everyone to cool down.

I suggest you all read the links I gave above regarding UNCLOS.

It s clear that, among other things, UNCLOS was set up to get past a lot of the historical bickering and claims based on all types of issues regarding the Law of the Sea.

Those who have signed it have agreed to some very specific things...many of them that are directly related to what is going on in the SCS.

If they abide by the treaty, they are going to let that framework be the legal authority on which decision are based.

After reading it and considering what it says and who has and hasn't signed it, we can continue the discussion.

So, I am going to extend the temporary closing of this thread until Tuesday after Memorial Day so this can cool down and we can have the chance to move on.

Please review the last 3-4 pages of posts and the links I provided for in:

THIS POST (from the other thread and also above here on this thread)

...and particularly PLAWOLF's response documenting where China opted out of particular historical provisions.

HERE (On the other thread)

THREAD TEMPORARILY CLOSED.
 
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Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
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MODERATOR NOTICE:

Thread Re-opened.

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solarz

solarz

Brigadier
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TAIPEI, Taiwan — Taiwan's President Ma Ying-jeou laid out a plan Tuesday to ease tensions in a vast, resource-rich Asian ocean where China has chafed against its neighbors by expanding islets with landfill to solidify its claims in the region.

Ma's plan calls for setting aside sovereignty disputes over the South China Sea and jointly exploring for resources.

Taiwan has not been a high-profile player in the disputes in the South China Sea, although it uses roughly the same historical basis for its claim as China, and Ma's initiative appeared aimed at shoring up foreign policy credentials at home.

"We emphasize that whereas sovereignty can't be divided, resources can be shared," Ma said in his speech Tuesday at an Asia-Pacific research forum in Taipei.

Taiwan, China, Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam and the Philippines claim all or parts of the 3.5 million-square-kilometer (1.4 million square-mile) South China Sea. The ocean ranges from Taiwan's southern tip southwest to Singapore.

In recent months China has made other claimants and their common ally the United States bristle by landfilling tiny islets, a way to extend its reach. The tropical sea is rich in oil, natural gas and fisheries as well as major international marine shipping routes.

In a sign of recent tensions, Beijing filed a formal complaint with the United States this week after an American military plane flew over one islet, and Japan has pledged to help Vietnam and the Philippines with defense as China's presence grows.

Taiwan's initiative calls on "all parties concerned" to uphold the "freedom and safety of navigation and overflight" and avoid unilateral action that would escalate tension, according to a statement from the foreign ministry. It also suggests regional cooperation in developing the region's resources.

Other South China Sea claimants are unlikely to react openly to Taiwan's initiative as they lack diplomatic relations with Ma's government. China claims sovereignty over Taiwan itself and uses economic clout to bar other nations from exchanges that cast Taiwan as a nation.

Ma did not discuss Tuesday the basis for Taiwan's maritime claim or that of other governments.

The United States wants the sea to stay open to shipping and flights, while Beijing has said Washington wants to keep a presence there to contain Chinese maritime expansion. Taiwan is keen to get along with the United States as its staunchest informal ally.

Ma's initiative "is not enough for China and it's not enough for the United States, so you just end up not meeting everyone's expectations," said Lai I-chung, vice president of Taiwan Think Tank.

The peace plan may also be calculated to bolster Taiwan's ruling Nationalist Party ahead of the January 2016 presidential election as their chief opposition candidate develops a competing plan for the South China Sea, said Joanna Lei, chief executive officer of the Chunghua 21st Century Think Tank in Taiwan.

Ma has been criticized at home for lack of foreign policy achievements.

In 2012, Ma proposed a peace initiative for settling disputes in the East China Sea, parts of which are claimed by his government as well as China and Japan.
Click to expand...

In fact, it looks like it's not even enough for the Philippines...

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J

joshuatree

Captain
solarz said:
In fact, it looks like it's not even enough for the Philippines...

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Click to expand...

Here is one entity proposing setting aside differences and sharing, yet the Philippines being the least capable of the vying claimants in terms of military just flat out rejects it. Don't see this helping their court case when the judges will look at how the parties have attempted any means of peaceful settlement. It's not like the KIG claim is in UNCLOS compliance either.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
joshuatree said:
Here is one entity proposing setting aside differences and sharing, yet the Philippines being the least capable of the vying claimants in terms of military just flat out rejects it. Don't see this helping their court case when the judges will look at how the parties have attempted any means of peaceful settlement. It's not like the KIG claim is in UNCLOS compliance either.
Click to expand...
I suspect it was always Philippines' plan to drag the US into the fray, and now it looks like Manila will get its wish. But, be careful what you wish for, it might just come true. I say that because the American public has little interests in the SCS and even less in fighting for Philippines over tiny specs in the ocean. How will it end? I think China-US face off will rise and then subside, and the Philippines will reap its rewards by being left out of the Maritime Silk Road, while its neighbors grow and prosper along with China.
 
Q

Quon_Duixote

New Member
Blackstone said:
I suspect it was always Philippines' plan to drag the US into the fray, and now it looks like Manila will get its wish. But, be careful what you wish for, it might just come true. I say that because the American public has little interests in the SCS and even less in fighting for Philippines over tiny specs in the ocean. How will it end? I think China-US face off will rise and then subside, and the Philippines will reap its rewards by being left out of the Maritime Silk Road, while its neighbors grow and prosper along with China.
Click to expand...


Think, this whole business that somehow economic interlinkages would assuage geopolitical ambitions is a big shod. History has shown us both sides of the coin.. (A nice pun, there!)..but yeah if China continues what it is doing now...I fear for the prospect of an Asian century..if a merchant comes to your door to trade goods while aspiring to lord over your house, wife and children, will you remain impotent just because he is selling you perfumes?
 
Zetageist

Zetageist

Junior Member
I have been looking at this map. Depending how you draw the EEZ line (angle) between Philippines and Malaysia, it seems like there is only one Chinese occupied - Mischief Reef located within Philippines' EEZ.

map_big.jpg
 
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