PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

Blitzo

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Flying in preparation of VJ day parade. It'll be quite a lot of force multipliers and important C4ISR assets flying. Less impressive than flying large bombers overhead, but I'd say an AEW&C or SIGINT plane is just as important if not more important in many ways.

In that slide show is also a KJ-500 flying among them. I wonder of Y-8Q will make an appearance.

I also really dislike mil sina as a source for images given the need to make an account to download the full rez images, not to mention their poor reputation for actual military news. Unfortunately I don't follow the relevant BBS closely enough to link pictures directly back to the source.
 

asif iqbal

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Totoro

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Could we discuss the potential of PLANAF's air fleet capable of performing long range identification of maritime targets?

Which platforms are in PLANAF's possession today? How many of which kind?
What sort of information do we have on their long range identification performance?

Besides the obvious maritime patrol aircraft fleet, what sort of long range identification performance can be achieved by other platforms? Such as kj-200 fleet? Or even h-6g bombers? Or even jh7a aircraft? Is there any data out there on possible ISAR modes of these planes' radars?
 

Totoro

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So as far as I can gather, there's the three known Y8x planes, with western avionics, solely for MPA roles.
Then there's the four known Y8j planes, again with western avionics. Their skymaster radars being really a variant of searwater radar for mpa purposes - it seems fair to assume these four are nowadays also primarely used as mpa planes.

Then there are six kj-200. Although primarely for air surveillance, there is enough evidence on western counterparts (USN e2 being designed for maritime surveillance for decades, saab's erieye boasting strong maritime surveillance capability and recent usaf e-3 modernization that includes maritime surveillance mode) that such planes can indeed be counted upon to serve as long range identification platforms.

Then there is the possibility of four Y8jb planes. Usually credited with elint role, but the shape and size of their chin radome seems unusual for that sort of sensor. Can anyone point out a western counterpart, an elint plane with such sensor layout? One can speculate that the Y8jb planes are in fact also meant for active radar surveillance?

Then there's, of course, the new mpa plane, y8q. Right now, allegedly two have been put in service.

That'd mean some 15 planes probably capable of long range identification of maritime targets (some doing it better than others, of course) with a slight possibility of four more (the y8jb) joining that group.

Question now is what else is, realistically, capable of joining them? jh7a? su30mk2? While their radars may be powerful enough on their own, proper SAR modes are something that has been put on western planes from 1990s onwards. ISAR modes are something that, as far as i can read in manufacturer's brochures, is something that is so far an option and hasn't really been inplemented in tactical combat plane radars in numbers. So perhaps some jh7b with brand new radar may be counted upon to have a powerful enough radar for such role, but existing planes seem like too much of a long shot to assume they have such capabilities. Of course, radars on existing jh7a could have been improved and various modes could have been added but without any sources that'd be a pure assumption.

Where I am on the fence is h6g. Their radars should, technologically, be no worse than what jh7a has. But since they're much bigger, and the platform that carries them is bigger, both the processing power and antenna resolution should be pretty decent. Adding to that that h6g is a high loiter time platform (compared to jh7) and the array itself seems to be housed in such a way it can rotate through front 180 degrees, if not a bit more, the whole plane seems to me geared towards some secondary maritime surveillance role. And from there it's basically a matter of software to get some half decent identification mode.

Anything else i've forgotten, that has to do with airplanes and their long range identification role?
 

Blitzo

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I'd say you're about right.
In terms of dedicated ISR, AEW&C, SIGINT craft with maritime surveillance capability, I'd say all of the PLAN's such aircraft listed on the previous page should be able to do so:

4 Y-8J "AEW" aircraft with skymaster radar
6 KJ-200/GX5 AEW&C
2 KJ-500/GX10 AEW&C (very recent)
3-4 Y-8X MPA
4 Y-8JB/GX2 ELINT
3 (at least) Y-9JB/GX8 ELINT (fairly recent additions)
1-3 Y-8Q/GX6 ASW MPA (very recent)

In addition to those, I think all of the recent H-6s should have some capability for surface surveillance, and the H-6K especially with upgraded radar, sensors, and its own inbuilt EO ball should be useful for that job as well.
JH-7/A's sensors is more for its own onboard targeting I think, and while it should be able to share information to some degree it should be far less capable than the aforementioned dedicated surveillance aircraft. It's also probably a bit much to ask for details about the radars, we're not privy to that kind of info.

I think PLAAF surveillance aircraft would also be capable of surface maritime surveillance as well, but probably not used in that role often.
 

Totoro

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Thanks for your input.
I know radar data is hard to come by, but one can always dream. I've tried searching for images of radar arrays on newer H-6 but to no avail, only older types with parabollic antennas pop up.

I wish I could be more sure of H-6g and their role, as everything i wrote is really guesswork which I myself am not sure about. I guess it could go either way. Key aspect of the whole thread here is identification, not just volume search and surveillance. Too bad most variables involved in that are due to stuff that are under the hood and not easy to analyze through images.

Also, I wish there was more info on the elint planes we talked about here. My theory was not that y8jb is really an elint plane but that it was primarely a mpa plane. Of course, with similar designation, (But who comes up with these designations? how official are they?) y9jb should then serve similar role. Antennas on y8jb are quite different than ones on y9jb.

I am sceptical about a true dual role elint and mpa plane. Mpa with some elint capability - sure. But a proper elint plane which is supposed to be quiet and collecting data silently from afar going around and blasting its radar around - that seems off to me. At least I don't know of any similar planes in the West.

As for PLAAF assets being used for mpa - i am also sceptical about that. I guess awacs are the best candidates, as there are examples for that in the west and it's mostly a matter of software. But H6k and such - I'd rather not dare even assume such a role. For h6k to have such a radar, it'd mean it's also capable of monitoring ground targets from afar. Basically then self targeting relocatable targets. It doesn't seem like a role for h6k, as so far we've seen h6k more as a stand off missile carrier which needs no such radar.
 

Blitzo

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Re Y-8JB -- I'm not sure who comes up with the designations, and chances are our ones aren't even correct. However Y-8JB definitely doesn't look like an MPA to me. All its funky antennae seem more indicative of various ESM and SIGINT antennae, really. MPAs usually feature a surface search radar, an EO ball, and less obvious ESM antennae, and possibly some dedicated observation windows. I'm not even sure if Y-8JB's underchin radome is for a radar or ESM, I'd say latter. And btw, when I mention SIGINT aircraft like Y-8JB having long range maritime surveillance role I'm talking about passive surveillance, i.e.: detecting and processing active emissions. Antenna on Y-8JB should look different to Y-9JB given the latter was developed nearly a decade after... I would've hoped some meaningful advancements would have occurred in that time.

Re H-6s -- I'm not sure why it's hard to believe H-6K having a surface search radar. Previous PLAAF H-6s like H-6H and H-6M all feature similar surface search radars despite being primarily cruise missile carriers, and I don't think H-6K's new massive shiny dark radome is only housing a simple weather radar, and even huitong says H-6K is thought to house a new ground surveillance radar. A multimode ground attack radar really is quite standard fit on all kinds of recent bombers, really, so if anything it would be strange if H-6K didn't have such a fit. It would also be... presumptuous I think to believe that PLAAF would have "only" desired H-6K as a mere cruise missile carrier. If I were PLAAF, I'd have built in additional provisions for PGM attack, more capable surface surveillance modes such as GMTI, some ESM capability, and provision for jamming as well, to make H-6K a multirole capable large long range attack platform rather than simply an airframe meant to blindly carry ALCMs, launch them, and land.

I also agree regarding PLAAF conducting maritime surveillance and ID tasks during normal circumstances... but your original query did speak of aircraft capable of doing such missions, not necessarily aircraft currently doing such missions.
 

Totoro

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It takes several posts just for us to understand each other. :D
If y8jb is an elint plane then i won't count it under "possible mpa" assets. I am primarely interested in platforms with active radars capable of performing identification of non-emitting distant ships.

And when i said planes capable of doing such missions i did really mean ones designed for it and ones that train for the role. So while, for example, planaf's kj-200 and plaaf's kj-200 may have identical hardware and may in theory be equally capable of the identification task, i'd rate planaf's planes as more likely to be doing that task.

Anyhow, after your input i'd list planaf (and plaaf's) capability in the said regard as following:

2 y8q as 90-99% capable of doing successful long range radar based identification of non emitting ships.
7 Y8j / y8x as 80-99% capable
8 planaf kj200 / kj500 as 50-99% capable
10 plaaf kj200 / kj500 / kj2000 as 30-99% capable
30-ish h6g as 30-60% capable
30-ish plaaf h6k as 20-60% capable

The percentages are purely illustrative and speculative, the sole reason i am not using them is because i dislike using terms such as "very likely to be effective", "moderately effective" etc.

Also, the list above reflects just my personal viewpoint. I am sure other members might have the percentages increased or decreased according to their own beliefs.
 
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