PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ultra

Junior Member
Carriers for PLAN should be better described as a medium term necessity, and a near term luxury. However it is impossible for one to develop a capable carrier force for the future without starting off somewhere.

In other words, PLAN are investing some money it could use to buy other things with, into a robust carrier capability in future even if in the near term the capability may not be wholly competitive.


I think you hit the nail right on the head on this one. A capable carrier battlegroup don't just happen out of thin air in one day, or a month, or a year, or even a decade! I am sure for the PLAN long term strategists they projected that for China to sufficiently protect its national interest, a carrier (or a training carrier) is critical at this stage, in preparation for the future larger and more capable carrier force 20-30 years down the track.
 
China's projected high intensity missions include but are also beyond Taiwan, and even beyond the first island chain, really. It is now a matter of ECS, SCS and the western pacific at large. A carrier is really the only multirole vessel capable of sustaining any kind of competitive air operations without land based aircraft, and it is something PLAN requires.
And in future lower intensity missions beyond westpac (say, defending interests in africa against second or third tier military forces), carriers will also be essential in providing air support and air cover as well.

Carriers for PLAN should be better described as a medium term necessity, and a near term luxury. However it is impossible for one to develop a capable carrier force for the future without starting off somewhere.
In other words, PLAN are investing some money it could use to buy other things with, into a robust carrier capability in future even if in the near term the capability may not be wholly competitive.

Frankly I think it is ridiculous to call the PLAN's carrier goals or Liaoning as a white elephant -- it would have been better if you originally said PLAN should consider spending money elsewhere.
I'm sure PLAN have quite vigorously debated their budget, yet the fact that they're still pursuing carriers must mean they believe the capability it provides is worth the money and even worth the short term risk in not spending carrier-related finances elsewhere.

---

I also see no evidence for your claim that carriers "may be falling out of favour" to Chinese and PLAN leadership.

I piped up about this mainly because others' recent comments are somewhat complaining that there is a lack of info coming out related to the carrier program, but I guess not much is coming out about any PLA program these days.

Anyhow I see the points for the carrier program all along and my opinion is obviously against it, for very sound reasons that the PLA has many better things to spend their money on and that a Chinese carrier program will not pay off for a long time. In the meantime if China gets into any hot war, its only carrier proven to exist is indeed not much more than a juicy target to damage morale.

Also until there is more solid evidence that the carrier program is progressing significantly it's plenty fair for me to postulate why the carrier program might not be progressing, which is just as likely given the lack of information.

I'll add that if recent rumors are true that China is pursuing development of VSTOL aircraft then I think that is a shift in the right direction. LHDs are much more flexible and less threatening than carriers, which also fits much better with China's foreign policy and military posture, as well as what I think are their ultimate operational goals. So we'll see.
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I piped up about this mainly because others' recent comments are somewhat complaining that there is a lack of info coming out related to the carrier program, but I guess not much is coming out about any PLA program these days.

As opposed to the flourishing amounts of new photos and videos and information that we had in the 2000s? It's basically always been like this. I'll address why there's a perceived lack of photos regarding PLAN carrier development in the last part of this reply

Anyhow I see the points for the carrier program all along and my opinion is obviously against it, for very sound reasons that the PLA has many better things to spend their money on and that a Chinese carrier program will not pay off for a long time. In the meantime if China gets into any hot war, its only carrier proven to exist is indeed not much more than a juicy target to damage morale.

If China gets into a hot war tomorrow then I agree, a carrier will not be very useful.
But if China gets into a hot war five years or ten years from now, then a carrier or two will provide great flexibility and additional safety.
Fifteen or twenty years later, the value only increases. The value increases even more if PLAN fight a limited bombing campaign in against a distant 2nd rate military, say in Africa, possibly to protect investments or cover PLAN ships evacuating PRC citizens.

I don't think any of us know enough about how well the PLAN is funded and how much the carrier program costs to other programs, as well as the industry's ability to produce other programs even with more funding (i.e.: doubling funding for 052D production may not simply equate to doubling of 052D production rate due to a shipyard's capacity)... so we can't say just how much the carrier program is inhibiting other programs and ships.


Also until there is more solid evidence that the carrier program is progressing significantly it's plenty fair for me to postulate why the carrier program might not be progressing, which is just as likely given the lack of information.

I have a few explanations for why we have limited photos and details regarding Liaoning and the indigenous carrier, which are far more likely than the idea that PLAN are reducing their backing of the carrier programme:

1: general high PLA opsec. This is really the most obvious one and applies to all PLA developments as they prefer to keep new capabilities close to the chest most of the time. Sure, new projects might get a big hurray such as commissioning Liaoning or the first flight of Y-20 but once the trials and training begin where important information regarding progress arises, they sure as hell aren't going to let us know, because secrecy is just their nature

2: PLAN have nothing to prove. This is related to point 1. PLA are not Iran or North Korea, they don't have anything to gain by constantly displaying new capabilities or trying to fake new capabilities. So even if they do make substantial improvements in capability chances are we won't see it immediately on video or photos, and they might even deliberately seek to conceal it

3: perceived lack of "new photos". Now that Liaoning is in service, it is difficult for us to get photos of her at sea and the operation on deck compared to when she was at docked at Dalian, where we could get constantly new updates of every new subsystem and addition to the ship as she was fitting out. As an operational ship at sea and returning to military dock, photos are naturally harder to come by.

4: carriers are important. What I mean by this, is that the PLAN recognize not only the symbolism of carriers both domestically and internationally, but also the capability of a carrier regarding its force intentions. The fact that PLAN are keeping 001A under tight wraps for as long as they can is just another additional reason for higher opsec relative to the standard opsec for all other PLA developments.

5: the fact that PLAN have never operated a carrier before. This is probably the most important reason. Over the last few years I've substantially revised the amount of time it will take PLAN to actually be effective in operating a carrier and the speed in which they can do it in. Remember, not only is Liaoning a new, massive combat ship (second only in displacement to a USN CVN) and not only is the J-15 a new aircraft, but all the subsystems aboard Liaoning have also never been tested in a true integrated fashion like this before, from propulsion to sensors and combat management and airwing. The deck crew are also green, without any substantial help from the outside, and basic procedures have to be tried, tested, and changed before they can even be properly implemented as routine training procedures... and that's before even getting together a decently proficient crew that can try to do high pace deck operations. This is occurring at the larger CSG level too where PLAN also have to test and develop a useful means of coordinating their ships and helicopters as a credible escort force that can operate effectively with a CSG and its airwing. So therefore it should come as no surprise that whatever pace they're developing at (even accounting for PLAN opsec and deliberate blackout on most information related to their carriers)

6: standard hurdles in operating a new vessel and its associated subsystems. Basically technical, operational issues. We shouldn't be surprised if challenges are experienced and time is needed to troubleshoot and solve them.

These are all IMO valid and likely reasons for why PLAN carrier program is both appearing to progress slowly (via lack of photos and info they release to us) and likely why the PLAN carrier program is actually moving slower than some of us would like (operating a new ship, ship type, airwing, crew, means it's ridiculous to expect USN style deck operations... even now, nearly three years after CV16's commissioning, when we consider how much previous experience and help PLAN has had with operating a carrier)

However I think it is a definite irrational jump to believe that the lack of new photos and information means there is some kind of lack of PLAN or Chinese govt support for the carrier program.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Wow what perfect timing, just as we were debating the lack of photos! :D:eek:

I also like how this seems to be an upload onto cjbdy of a camera capture of a computer screen showing an upload of the original photo...

To count:
I see 7 J-15s in this photo (5 on deck, 1 being launched, 1 on elevator), two Ka-28s or possibly Ka-31, and a Z-8/18 type aircraft.
There's also two 051Cs and an 054A as escort, probably with at least one other ship in the group

And of course we should all keep in mind this photo probably isn't very recent, meaning they've probably been doing this for a while now. I think we can guess where and what Liaoning has been doing over the last few months when it's been out of sight...


I'm also fairly confident it isn't a CGI, even though we've had fairly good quality CGIs before like below, and the photo of a photo may be intending to obscure it making it look more real...I'm sure we'll get more photos in the next few days to confirm it's real.

O4hBaQg.jpg
 
Last edited:

Intrepid

Major
Aboard USN CVN yes. One crew works 12 hours and the other work 12 hours and many still others work flight quarters to flight quarters...about 16 hours.
Continous 24/7-operation is more theoretical. For example, what was done in Desert Storm:
"At the beginning of the Gulf War, KENNEDY, AMERICA and SARATOGA operated on a six day rotation cycle. Two of the carriers would launch strike aircraft while the third would move to an area in the Red Sea, known as "Gasoline Aley", for two days to replenish munitions, stores and fuel. This meant that each of the three carriers was on line for four days conducting either a morning or evening flight operations schedule, then off line for two days to replenish. The off line carrier was still tasked with standing anti-air warfare and airborne early warning alerts, but it did not conduct flight operation against targets in Iraq or Kuwait." (Quoted from "The USS John F. Kennedy: in detail & scale" / by Bert Kinzey)
 

delft

Brigadier
China has a different budget system from US of which I know very little, but it is reasonable to assume that the budget for a long range project like the development of aircraft carriers is not subject to yearly revisions as is usual in US Congress simply because that is likely to introduce a lot of waste.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top