Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Russians can't deliver. Their electronics are no better. Their latest engine will fail

The Indians are being cheated, as usual. More likely because they don't know what they are doing.

There, now we are back to discussing the usual stuff.
Bar brother, everything you said (while it may end up being true) is speculation at this point. I know you will say it is based on history, and all kinds of reasons that you believe make it valid, etc.

But please understand, here on SD we try and remain civil and we try not to needlessly antagonize others. Better to wait and see that those things actually occur before you go off stating them so emphatically.

Also, to say that the Indians are being cheated and that they do not know what they are doing is equally antagonistic and violates the rules. You do not know the people involved personally and are not (I am quite sure) privy to the dealings and specifics...so to say such things is again speculation and will offend posters here.

You are receiving a warning for those types of comments.
 
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Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Tread opened again ... but remember: keep it civilized, no need to take an argument or opinion as a personnel insult - read what the other one wrote before You reply - also no need to antagonize even by a certain form if being ironic !

... by the way there's not only BLACK & WHITE !


Deino
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
You don't need production missiles for testing. The mockups are from air shows, hence are mockups. The real stuff is with Sukhoi.

The internal bays are still a secret. Doesn't mean it does not exist, or that the weapons don't exist.

Missiles exists, but they are not yet fully operational and certified with PAK FA . As far as I know, they plan to complete them in 2016. So, any delay will cause delay in PAK FA program .
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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No I don't think it is different.

It simply depends on how severe the damage was especially to the inner structure, the loading beams and so on, and maybe this fact alone is the single reason to try to repair it: To report the public HEY we could do that and to get the information about what'a necessary to do it after such a damage.

However in mind of being a prototype that has most of all at this stage the only duty to fly as much as possible, to gain as many flight hours to explore the flight regime ... it is sometimes not economically usefull to do such a heavy repair.

Again I do not want to bash that type ... even more I think it's proof for the quality that it returned safely home without a loss. However with such a severly burned airframe I think it is a total loss. Nothing more ... but all evidence so far and with each day passing by I even more tend to see it as a proof.

To continue hoping for a miracle is fine but especially with posting old and dated reports on and on seem to be more like wishful-thinking that a logic conclusion. But YES, a final conclusion will be only possible when we see that bird again or UAC admits that it is a loss.

Deino

Do we actually know what happened to the plane?
To me, it look like either a catastrophic engine failure (structural failure of a turbine blade or of course a bird strike) or something like a breached fuel line, leading to a fire.

Two things sprang to my mind
1) That either scenario was something that could occur through combat damage
2) The plane held together and the pilot was able to land and save it.

That actually is the reason for my optimism that the damage is not perhaps as great as it may superficially appear. As long as both blast and heat can be directed away from the airframe by design, it has a good chance of surviving and repair (within of course the realms of economic feasibility).
If it was not able to vent away, then blast or heat/fire would quickly destroy the integrity of the airframe and down she comes.

If the Airframe is basically still sound (likely I think because it survived) the question then is what was damaged and that looks to be an Engine and some fuselage. Landing gear is ok as it landed and the instrumentation in the airframe seems to be ok or at least not critical or too difficult to replace.

Further of course I am sure that if the failure was a design fault, they would wish to rebuild to see if a new solution can work better.
Anyhow I am sure we will learn one way or another before too long.
 

Deino

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Do we actually know what happened to the plane?
To me, it look like either a catastrophic engine failure (structural failure of a turbine blade or of course a bird strike) or something like a breached fuel line, leading to a fire.

Two things sprang to my mind
1) That either scenario was something that could occur through combat damage
2) The plane held together and the pilot was able to land and save it.

That actually is the reason for my optimism that the damage is not perhaps as great as it may superficially appear. As long as both blast and heat can be directed away from the airframe by design, it has a good chance of surviving and repair (within of course the realms of economic feasibility).
If it was not able to vent away, then blast or heat/fire would quickly destroy the integrity of the airframe and down she comes.

If the Airframe is basically still sound (likely I think because it survived) the question then is what was damaged and that looks to be an Engine and some fuselage. Landing gear is ok as it landed and the instrumentation in the airframe seems to be ok or at least not critical or too difficult to replace.

Further of course I am sure that if the failure was a design fault, they would wish to rebuild to see if a new solution can work better.
Anyhow I am sure we will learn one way or another before too long.


Agree ... from what I've heard from my Russian guys it was most likely the way You described it (marked bold in Your text) and in regard to Your two point I agree completely on both.

But again from all I've heard the aircraft remained intact but both the internal structure due to the fire as well (even more) the external damage to the panel lines also in surrounding areas were so heavily damaged that this aircraft is a "write-off". Like You questioned, the integrity of the airframe was so much damaged by that fire, that it was simply not worth to be rebuild.

T50-5 mishap - damage.jpg

Again before a few again get me wrong: surely that can be done by a large amount of money, time and probably half the aircraft being replaced; YES and it is even more surely not a statement to bash this type. Quite in reverse a testimonial for the quality of its structure.

But my point is only - and I think the YF-22 after its crash landing is a good example - it was not worth these efforts and cheaper, more economical or whatever You call it to abandon this aircraft.

Once again don't get me wrong, but a good friend in Russia answered in a typical humorous way when he called the future of that bird with Monty Python's "Dead Parrot" !

Deino
 
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b787

Captain
Do we actually know what happened to the plane?
.
the answer is not because no one here works for Sukhoi and i doubt even anyone here has even seen it in real life, the rest is pure speculations and opinions, so that is why i simply take Sukhoi statement and i saw footage in the latest Russia Channel one video of bort 55 flying, the program is dated December 27th 2014, that is all i know.
Mikhail Pogyosan was who was given credit for the video footage of that Program
 
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b787

Captain
i made a mistake it was not Pogosyan who was given credit for the video footage, any way i let you this nice song used in the program who says everything for those who love aviation

anyway only time will tell, i hope i see 055 flying again :)
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
The T-50 is a warplane and a feature of warplanes is that they can take knocks and damage and be repaired again in a reasonable time for a return to combat. Damage is a part of the design brief.

Why do people suppose the T-50 is different?

Well in actuality the T-50 has been designed to be different, much of the structure is carbon fibre likely bonded to a titanium spine, either with rivets, bolts, or more likely a bonding agent. Titanium is very difficult to weld, in fact welds are a critical area of failure of any titanium structure, carbon fibre as the name implies is a composite much like fiberglass only using the much stronger carbon fiber which is layered and bonded in the shape desired, and compressed in a mold under pressure to give it maximum strength by chasing out the voids, one of the secrets of its strength is this process?

I believe that the engine caught fire upon landing, if you recall at MAKs one of the T-50s had an engine event and fire on the runway on take-off, the take off was aborted and the engine fire contained, all engines have a fire suppression device, as turbines do get very hot. The T-50 in particular is pushing the F-117, and nothing wrong with that. As we saw from the F-135 fire on the F-35, it was caused by the chaffing of the turbine, on its outer housing, these things happen.

My point is as Deino has well stated that a fire, which was as well developed as the one on T-50 dash 055 has likely caused a very extensive delamination of those wonderful carbon fibre, and a very definite change in the molecular structure of the supporting spine, stringers, and ribs that it is bonded to. I had already suggested that the T-50 would probably use the undamaged nose, tail, wings, and any other undamaged structure and attached to a new center section, fuselage, which is the most efficient and cost effective manner to repair damage of this nature. The T-50 structure has been designed and built to be both light and strong, what happens when you push the envelope in this manner is that you may and in fact in the T-50s case, we know they have ended up with some structural issues, hence the exterior longerons bonded to the T-50s horizontal stabilizers. Not a bit different than what we have ended up with the F-35B by substituting an aluminum allow, for the designed Titanium Bulkhead that carriers the heavy structure , we also have cracks that will continue to be dealt with, all in the desire to save some weight, and make no mistake, the weight saving game is played by every fighter designer, car designer and even bicycle designers.
 

Deino

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... the rest is pure speculations and opinions, so that is why i simply take Sukhoi statement and i saw footage in the latest Russia Channel one video of bort 55 flying, the program is dated December 27th 2014, that is all i know.
Mikhail Pogyosan was who was given credit for the video footage of that Program

YES for sure, but to assume that a video on show at the 27. Dec. was actually filmed only a few days ago and from this alone to assume or to be sure that 055 was flying at around December is IMO a much more unlikely option that the assume it shows simply 055 during better days in its life. Anyway yes only an opinion, but IMO a much more likely one.

Maybe someone knows from what flight these images are (IMO the ones at around 46:xx are from 055's maiden flight).

Deino
 
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