New J-10 Thread

MIGleader · Apr 13, 2006

tphuang said:
yep, I just can't leave J-10 alone for more than 2 days, more news from the Pakistani front.

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The interesting part is that PAF has given the designation "FC-20" for J-10 (again, I'm feeling a little suspicious here). And PAF is getting 500 BVR AAMs? Which one? 500 JDAM? Maybe China can make a deal to get one of those JDAM under the table.

Even if China managed to get pakistan to "loan" a JDAM, what would they do from there? They could try to design a new ground attack munition off of it but china doesnt have a sattelite network to guide it(unless beidou can). the only other option is glonass, but glonass guided munitions already exist.

tphuang · Apr 13, 2006

MIGleader said:
Even if China managed to get pakistan to "loan" a JDAM, what would they do from there? They could try to design a new ground attack munition off of it but china doesnt have a sattelite network to guide it(unless beidou can). the only other option is glonass, but glonass guided munitions already exist.

I'm thinking that China is building a lot of system recently with the assumption that they will have a satellite network that can cover at least East Asia in a few years. I'm not going to speculate on which network China can use again, since we've already had a billion conversations on this, but I do think having an indigenous satellite guided munition is the right way to go even if Satellite network hasn't been fully setup.

As for J-10, the only thing that I think it really lacks against some of the other mentionned fighters like F-16 and F-18 in terms of weapons and avionics is the A2S and A2G stuff and avionics that uses them. If PAF wishes to integrate some of its western PGMs and AAMs on J-10, then I can definitely see some avionics on it. But then again, if you plan to use it as an air superiority plane, that shouldn't be a problem. If you think about the fact that China is also planning to use J-10 against the super hornets (the most likely opponent to J-10 in any Taiwan scenario) and MKI. I'm sure PAF would not be purchasing J-10s if they don't think it can handle F-18 and MKI.

FreeAsia2000 · Apr 13, 2006

tphuang said:
I'm thinking that China is building a lot of system recently with the assumption that they will have a satellite network that can cover at least East Asia in a few years. I'm not going to speculate on which network China can use again, since we've already had a billion conversations on this, but I do think having an indigenous satellite guided munition is the right way to go even if Satellite network hasn't been fully setup.

As for J-10, the only thing that I think it really lacks against some of the other mentionned fighters like F-16 and F-18 in terms of weapons and avionics is the A2S and A2G stuff and avionics that uses them. If PAF wishes to integrate some of its western PGMs and AAMs on J-10, then I can definitely see some avionics on it. But then again, if you plan to use it as an air superiority plane, that shouldn't be a problem. If you think about the fact that China is also planning to use J-10 against the super hornets (the most likely opponent to J-10 in any Taiwan scenario) and MKI. I'm sure PAF would not be purchasing J-10s if they don't think it can handle F-18 and MKI.

I agree.

China as we've discussed in numerous threads here has followed a strategy of
walk quickly with small steps...in this case it seems to have settled on the J-10 as it's future fighter which implies that the J-10 will be able to combat the majority of it's future threats.

Since the F-18 and the MKI would seem to be the quality mainstay fighters of the future (the j-22 is in too small numbers and possibly will be handled by small numbers of j-xx) then it is likely that the j-10 will have the capability in the near future to match the f-18 and MKI

Elite-Pilot · Apr 16, 2006

Tell ya what,

If India does purchase F-18 E/F which has a price tag of around 50 million, they will be stuck with a fighter that is 80% capable to the SU-30MKI. Meaning no threat to China. The SU-30 MK2 can take down a F-18E/F ,but it has to be equpped with the ight things. For if its not, it could result as a loss of one of the most advanced fighters in the People Liberation Army Air Force. The fact that the F-18 has a limited payload, limited range and stiff maneuverability definitely gives the Su-30 Mk2/MKK an upper hand. The J-10 can supposedly take down Su-27's/J-11 that has similar tecnology of the Su-30MKK. So it is possible for a J-10 to take down a Su-30MKK. After all the J-10 can posses a BIG threat to the Su-30MKK if it has been locked n' loaded properly.

Is the F-18 E/F capable of landing on an Admiral Kuzenetskov or Admiral Groshkov? If it is, Then problems would be bought forth for the PLAAF and not to mention the PAF.

The F-16 C/D 50/52 can effectively 'pin down' a F-18E/F but to be able to shoot it down, the pilot must have a great amount of skill. That is why I think one PAF / PLAAF squadron with the most advanced planes should be based on the coast. Ready and armed with Anti-Ship missles. If the F-18 E/F were to be modified to fit the an ASEA radar of the Americans, then talks should be held on how to counter these threats. Since the Europeans have lifted the embargo on the Chinese, are there any chances of the PLAAF inspecting the Rafale and tranfering technology of this air craft to the J-10?

The AESA radar for the J-10 is still under production is it not? What is it called? what is its range? can someone make this clearer for me? Tphuang, can you gimme a few specs. since you have a good knowledge of Chinese radars?

MIGleader · Apr 16, 2006

Tell ya what,

If

India does purchase F-18 E/F which has a price tag of around 50 million, they will be stuck with a fighter that is 80% capable to the SU-30MKI. Meaning no threat to China. The SU-30 MK2 can take down a F-18E/F ,but it has to be equpped with the ight things. For if its not, it could result as a loss of one of the most advanced fighters in the People Liberation Army Air Force. The fact that the F-18 has a limited payload, limited range and stiff maneuverability definitely gives the Su-30 Mk2/MKK an upper hand. The J-10 can supposedly take down Su-27's/J-11 that has similar tecnology of the Su-30MKK. So it is possible for a J-10 to take down a Su-30MKK. After all the J-10 can posses a BIG threat to the Su-30MKK if it has been locked n' loaded properly.

...The f-18 is certainly just as, or even mroe as capable as the su-30mki, with the exception being manuverability. The payload of the f-18 exceeds that of the mki. it can carry approximately 17,750 pounds (8,032 kg) of external load on eleven stations. the mki was optimized for air-supremecy, therefor does not have the extensive a2g modifications of the mkk, including strengthened structure.

Is the F-18 E/F capable of landing on an Admiral Kuzenetskov or Admiral Groshkov? If it is, Then problems would be bought forth for the PLAAF and not to mention the PAF.

The indians are using mig-29 for their carrier

The F-16 C/D 50/52 can effectively 'pin down' a F-18E/F but to be able to shoot it down, the pilot must have a great amount of skill. That is why I think one PAF / PLAAF squadron with the most advanced planes should be based on the coast. Ready and armed with Anti-Ship missles. If the F-18 E/F were to be modified to fit the an ASEA radar of the Americans, then talks should be held on how to counter these threats. Since the Europeans have lifted the embargo on the Chinese, are there any chances of the PLAAF inspecting the Rafale and tranfering technology of this air craft to the J-10?

what? where did you read that an f-16 can pin down an f-18? Its rare to find info on how well u.s aircraft perform against their peers. The f-18 sold to india is almost gurenteed to have the apg-79 AESA, so it will pwn the mechanicaly scanned array radar of pakistans f-16s(apg-66) and China's existing j-10s(kjl-3). The europeans have NOT lifted their embargo, so china will not see a rafale for many years.

The AESA radar for the J-10 is still under production is it not? What is it called? what is its range? can someone make this clearer for me? Tphuang, can you gimme a few specs. since you have a good knowledge of Chinese radars?

since when did j-10 have an AESA? The kjl-3 is not even a PAR yet.

tphuang · Apr 16, 2006

The fact that the Americans are using F-18E/F as their main carrier fighter in the next decade should tell you something. New super hornets are coming into service as the world's premier multi-role fighters. Can you say the same about F-16s? The only saving grace for PLAAF and PAF is that F-18E/F is trying to be good in so many areas, so it's air superiority capability isn't as strong compared to its other capabilities.

As for AESA with J-10, my personal belief is that it's not that far away. The reason is that we see so many AESA radar coming out of lab 14 and 38 for air defense radars on ships and AEW/surveillence radars. The main problem for China is the cost of T/R modules for fighters. Until that is lowered to an acceptable level, you won't see any J-10s with AESA radar. I'm guessing we would see AESA equipped J-10s before the end of the decades. It would be coming out at the same time that the modified J-10s come out.

Anyhow, more on PAF's desire to purchase J-10s.

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Pakistan to discuss Chinese defence purchases
By Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad
Published: April 17 2006 01:18 | Last updated: April 17 2006 01:18

Pakistan will discuss the purchase of advanced defence supplies from China when President Pervez Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, prime minister, visit Beijing later this year, senior Pakistani officials said.

The revelation closely followed last week’s announcement that Pakistan would buy an unspecified number of sophisticated J-10 fighter jets, also known as F-10s, from China and provided further evidence of the two countries consolidating an already close relationship.

Analysts believe that Pakistan, an important US ally in the fight against terrorism, is concerned about what it considers to be a fast-growing nuclear alliance between neighbouring India and the US and is looking to China as the main source of its crucial defence supplies.

Pakistan was looking to China for military deals even more than before, said Talat Masood, a respected commentator on defence affairs in Islamabad. Unlike the US, there was no question of sanctions from China, he said.

There have also been reports that Pakistan is seeking more nuclear power reactors from Beijing beyond the two already committed by China. After last month’s visit to Pakistan by US president George W. Bush, Pakistan’s leaders have also urged Washington to supply the country with civil nuclear reactors, just as the US has promised India.

The J-10s are the most sophisticated military purchases by Pakistan from China in four decades.

Western diplomats said Pakistan was believed to be seeking 35-40 of the fighter jets in a deal worth at least $1.5bn (€1.2bn, £857m). This is in addition to plans for the purchase of 150 JF-17 fighter jets being produced jointly by Pakistan and China, valued by analysts at $2.2bn-$2.5bn.

Pakistan also said last week it would buy up to 77 F-16 fighter jets from the US. The US last year lifted restrictions on the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, 15 years after suspending a deal in 1990 for the sale of 71 of them on the grounds that Pakistan was producing nuclear weapons.

“Pakistan’s view on relations with the US and China is revealed from how these two deals were announced simultaneously,” said a Pakistani government official. “If the US in future once again blocks deliveries for one reason or another, the pipeline from China would continue. Trust, trust and trust has always been the guiding principle for our two countries.”

The interesting part is that a lot of people on Chinese board are miffed that China would be willing to export this to PAF this early. I personally think we should reserve judgement until we see more details on this (like when PAF is inducting J-10s). Another issue is the cost. It seems to suggest that the per unit cost of J-10 is 40 million US. That sounds awfully high.

Diving Falcon · Apr 16, 2006

But you also have to consider that PAF is buying the J-10s with all of its infrastructure, training, etc; so obviously the cost will be high. In fact, the PAF F-16 Block-52 deal is apparently worth 50-60mn USD per aircraft; of course the cost will go down if and when follow-on orders are placed.

maglomanic · Apr 17, 2006

tphuang said:
The interesting part is that a lot of people on Chinese board are miffed that China would be willing to export this to PAF this early. I personally think we should reserve judgement until we see more details on this (like when PAF is inducting J-10s). Another issue is the cost. It seems to suggest that the per unit cost of J-10 is 40 million US. That sounds awfully high.

Actually it's just the start of the whole process. It's not like China will have to export those planes within a year or so. But they can atleast start working on it now.

Elite-Pilot · Apr 17, 2006

So, is it likely for the Pakistan Air Force to have access to the J-10 AESA by late 2015? What is the estimated range of this radar?

The PAF will probably look to the AESA when it feels that the power in South Asia is imbalancing. When the J-10's go through their upgrades in the service of the PAF. This upgrade would definitely increase its survivability against the SU-30MKI.

what? where did you read that an f-16 can pin down an f-18? Its rare to find info on how well u.s aircraft perform against their peers.

When I say 'pin down' I mean hold it back. Any plane is capable of doing this. But the question is how long can it last? how long before it is hot down?

...The f-18 is certainly just as, or even mroe as capable as the su-30mki, with the exception being manuverability. The payload of the f-18 exceeds that of the mki. it can carry approximately 17,750 pounds (8,032 kg) of external load on eleven stations. the mki was optimized for air-supremecy, therefor does not have the extensive a2g modifications of the mkk, including strengthened structure.

Impossible, F-18E/F has the ability to go just under Mach 2 and the MKI goes well above Mach 2. F-18E/F has a limited payload than the MKI . The Su-30MKI has a better ECM suite. A better radar/avionics suite. And considering that the Indians have a wide array of Russian weapons (some that cannot be carried by the F-18E/F) the MKI takes lead in that sector too. The MKI also has an advantage in data-link and feedback ,simply because its a MORE capable aircraft.

tphuang · Apr 17, 2006

Elite-Pilot said:
So, is it likely for the Pakistan Air Force to have access to the J-10 AESA by late 2015? What is the estimated range of this radar?

The PAF will probably look to the AESA when it feels that the power in South Asia is imbalancing. When the J-10's go through their upgrades in the service of the PAF. This upgrade would definitely increase its survivability against the SU-30MKI.

When I say 'pin down' I mean hold it back. Any plane is capable of doing this. But the question is how long can it last? how long before it is hot down?

Impossible, F-18E/F has the ability to go just under Mach 2 and the MKI goes well above Mach 2. F-18E/F has a limited payload than the MKI . The Su-30MKI has a better ECM suite. A better radar/avionics suite. And considering that the Indians have a wide array of Russian weapons (some that cannot be carried by the F-18E/F) the MKI takes lead in that sector too. The MKI also has an advantage in data-link and feedback ,simply because its a MORE capable aircraft.

no idea when paf will get AESA radar, but I would say 2010-2012 sounds like a reasonable time frame. Don't ask for specs on a radar that's not even out, since the exact specs on KLJ-3 isn't even revealed. If J-10 can't fight against mki, China would not station it in the division facing India and PAF would not purchase it.

super hornets have much better avionics than mki. Where do you get stuff like mki having better avionics from? Seriously, I don't even think an Indian person would tell you that an Indian developed RWR is better than the latest RWR on the super hornets. Have you compared their cockpits? What about their control software? What about the processors and databus they use? Also, every modern plane has datalink. The bug is a far superior multi-role plane. It can simultaneously do A2A and A2G engagements using the new AESA radar. MKI is a nice air superiority plane, but it's not a better multirole fighter than the semi-stealthy super hornet. MKK is considered to be better than MKI in terms of multirole capabilities, but I can tell you that it's precision strike capability is no where near that of something like the bug.

As for payload, the bug can carry 8000kg+

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That's the payload of su-34.

New J-10 Thread

MIGleader

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tphuang

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MIGleader

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*New J-10 Thread*

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New J-10 Thread