J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

Air Force Brat said:

Why does the US station the Raptor on our three Borders, Eglin AFB, Langley AFB, and JB Elmendorf/Richardson AFB, while I realize they are there to defend our borders, they are primarily there at present to "patrol" our borders. We use CVN all around the world to carry the flag and "project power". J-20 will perform the same function at a fraction of the cost, and present a real deterrence to anyone who might be tempted to conduct surveillance and observe any maritime operations. To forward station an aircraft that is both stealthy and long range, would present a real threat to AWACs and Tankers, and disrupt the Air Ops of any possible threat, more specifically the USN/USAF as we attempt to gather intelligence in real time...

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Sorry Brat. Normally we see the world in the same light but not on this one. I actually struggle to understand why is the US using F-22's for border patrol. I think it is insane in the age of sequestration. An F-22 is a specialised asset, necessary for those high end tactical missions because no one else can do the job. There are a limited number and one would imagine that preservation of their structural airframe would be important because who knows when and if there will be a replacement. Flying hours should be concentrated on high end training and developing the necessary skills for those difficult missions. Unfortunately border patrol in my view is not a cost effective and efficient deployment of a valuable asset. It is estimated it cost $49,000 per flying hour for a F-22 and anywhere between $$7,000 to $23,000 for a F-16C/D and $11,000 to $24,000 for an F-18. Going after a Bear or Bison using a F-22 is an overkill unless the US is in a state of hostility. The only reason I can think of in the Alaska area is because the F-22 can super cruise and might be necessary to ensure intercept (for a large sector) but without looking at bases and operational range of other deployed assets, that is simply a wild notion.

I would apply the same reasoning for a J-20.

Air Force Brat said:

At the present both China and Russia are beginning to feel some real economic pressure from the global downturn/current events, and you can't have everything, CV-16 is rather toothless with-out an airwing at present? So whether or not you feel its appropriate, sending a couple of Raptors out to intercept those old clanky Mig-31s, Su-27s, and Bears sends a very clear message. What makes you think China wouldn't like to be able to send out an equally clear message, the J-20 will send the same message our Raptors do??? "Do you feel Lucky Punk?" "well do you?" Have a nice day, I'm going to bed.

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Sending in a Raptor does send a distinct psychological message but it also presents to your potential adversary the added opportunities to evaluate the operational capabilities of the F-22. There is diminishing value in this approach but provides increasing corresponding opportunities to the other side for assessment and tactics. Longer term it is actually counter productive in my view. In any case there are many ways to show the flag.

no_name said:

I just looked up Langley AFB on google map and you can see the Raptors quite nicely.

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Beautiful aren't they, and they are far more deadly than they have been given credit for, this is the bird the J-20 has been designed to offend/defend against. The J-20 looks promising on many levels, hopefully the L/O aspects will be up to snuff, agility, should be in the ballpark, and with better engines it will no doubt supercruise, and in the meantime, in burner it will make time, one of the reasons we see the J-20 dumping so much fuel is that it has awesome tankage. It was designed quite frankly, for the long range combat air patrol, the same mission the Raptor has been tasked with, the J-20 however does not have a dedicated tanker force to ask, when, where, and how much. While a great deal of criticism of the Raptor is aimed at her tankage, it is perfectly adequate to take her any where she wants to go.

The Raptor travels with a dedicated force to fuel it, and maintain it, that's how they train, and that's how they will operate..... the tankers are seen by some as a weak link, but they free the Raptor to to be Max Air all the time. Everyone knows the the Raptor sips fuel for the performance given, so much of the time there is NO requirement to be in after-burner, you will note that when you have seen Raptors launch they immediately Go High, and throttle back and Go Fast. Much of the Raptor's talent remains "classified", lots of the critics don't understand what the Raptor is or what it does everyday, and how much is simply "out there", to top that all off, it is a very "happy" airplane, with a very simple transition, anyone can fly the Raptor, but it takes a minor superman to operate it at its limits, like a "crotch rocket", its limits are far beyond the realm of the "average Joe", but the bottom 8/10s remain far superior to what everyone else is getting out of there birds, its just a very fine airplane, that has been underrated and maligned either through ignorance or the "bean counters", no its not a Volkswagen Beetle, nor a Hyndai Sante Fe, its a high-end Ferrari or Porsche, a little more expensive, a lot more performance!

Brumby said:

Sorry Brat. Normally we see the world in the same light but not on this one. I actually struggle to understand why is the US using F-22's for border patrol. I think it is insane in the age of sequestration. An F-22 is a specialised asset, necessary for those high end tactical missions because no one else can do the job. There are a limited number and one would imagine that preservation of their structural airframe would be important because who knows when and if there will be a replacement. Flying hours should be concentrated on high end training and developing the necessary skills for those difficult missions. Unfortunately border patrol in my view is not a cost effective and efficient deployment of a valuable asset. It is estimated it cost $49,000 per flying hour for a F-22 and anywhere between $$7,000 to $23,000 for a F-16C/D and $11,000 to $24,000 for an F-18. Going after a Bear or Bison using a F-22 is an overkill unless the US is in a state of hostility. The only reason I can think of in the Alaska area is because the F-22 can super cruise and might be necessary to ensure intercept (for a large sector) but without looking at bases and operational range of other deployed assets, that is simply a wild notion.
I would apply the same reasoning for a J-20.
Sending in a Raptor does send a distinct psychological message but it also presents to your potential adversary the added opportunities to evaluate the operational capabilities of the F-22. There is diminishing value in this approach but provides increasing corresponding opportunities to the other side for assessment and tactics. Longer term it is actually counter productive in my view. In any case there are many ways to show the flag.

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I honestly agree with you completely on the preservation of the Raptor, and have a post somewhere calling for its airframe preservation, and scaling back training to about 6/10ths of where it is presently. But I would remind you that the long range Bear or J-31 missions are a rarity, and a very real threat! They are armed much of the time, and where they to prepare to launch, they would be blown from the sky without reservation, the Raptor is uniquely equipped and to meet this threat on a day to day no sweat basis. Yes I'm rather certain that F-15s and F-16s, F-18s also routinely meet this threat. Threat Brumby is the operative word here Sir, the threat has "escalated" to the level of a serious concern, I would not under-estimate the threat of any nation that we have seen, engaging their former satellites in order to re-acquire strategic assets, obviously the US military takes the threat seriously.

It is my honest belief that as the Chinese have attempted to replicate many US practices on CV-16, that they have also observed the typical combat air patrol, and will closely mirror many aspects of USAF protocol that fit their needs. I believe that the J-20 is an aircraft that is uniquely Chinese, and has been designed and built to mirror the mission and capabilities of the Raptor, I believe that was Dr. Songs point, in reaching for the stars so to speak in performance on the J-20, he intended this aircraft to be a "world class fighter aircraft-setting his sights on the Raptor, and her capabilities. The J-20 will very soon have the opportunity to "face off against the F-35 as both South Korea and Japan acquire that very fine aircraft, in spite of all the negative press on that aircraft, I would not "choose" to go out and meet that challenge in a J-11B or even a J-15, both very fine aircraft and very capable aircraft, but not up to our little ThunderHogge II on a BVR basis. So I believe the J-20 is an essential element of the Chinese strategy for patrolling airspace that they wish to assert "domination" over, just my two cents here Bruda, but on your first point, of preserving the Raptor, I say amen!

A new one.

AssassinsMace said:

A new one.

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Lovely Aeroplane, and they are making rather more rapid progress in the last year or so, this will likely continue to ramp up as they prepare to finalize the design and move into LRIP.

Well, you have to give credit to the PLAAF/PRC.

The first J-20, #2001, first flew January 11th of 2011. The second one, #2002, first flew on May 29th of 2012 I beleive.

Now, here in 2014, we have had the third, #2011 fly March 1st, the fourth, #2012 fly July 26th, and now the fifth, #2013, fly November 29th.

Three in 2014, approximately every four months. Pretty amazing.

Clearly they are happy with this stage of the development and producing these prototypes and flying them fairly rapidly now.

Jeff Head said:

Well, you have to give credit to the PLAAF/PRC.

The first J-20, #2001, first flew January 11th of 2011. The second one, #2002, first flew on May 29th of 2012 I beleive.

Now, here in 2014, we have had the third, #2011 fly March 1st, the fourth, #2012 fly July 26th, and now the fifth, #2013, fly November 29th.

Three in 2014, approximately every four months. Pretty amazing.

Clearly they are happy with this stage of the development and producing these prototypes and flying them fairly rapidly now.

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Exactly, and with the J-20 and J-31, we have two indigenous 5th generation aircraft, shame the J-20 hasn't seen an airshow performance, and you have to give AVIC credit, putting the J-31 out there on the flight line, and flying an airshow routine with a a tech demonstrator is "ballsy", I would really enjoy seeing the J-20 fly the same kind of display, just because those things are cool, on the other hand we have yet to see an A or C model fly an airshow yet either. I can't wait?

Air Force Brat said:

Exactly, and with the J-20 and J-31, we have two indigenous 5th generation aircraft, shame the J-20 hasn't seen an airshow performance, and you have to give AVIC credit, putting the J-31 out there on the flight line, and flying an airshow routine with a a tech demonstrator is "ballsy", I would really enjoy seeing the J-20 fly the same kind of display, just because those things are cool, on the other hand we have yet to see an A or C model fly an airshow yet either. I can't wait?

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Actually, we did see 2001 fly the same kind of display two years ago or so, didn't we? I mean, what the 2001 did was no less than what this 31001 has done, right?

Jeff Head said:

Well, you have to give credit to the PLAAF/PRC.

The first J-20, #2001, first flew January 11th of 2011. The second one, #2002, first flew on May 29th of 2012 I beleive.

Now, here in 2014, we have had the third, #2011 fly March 1st, the fourth, #2012 fly July 26th, and now the fifth, #2013, fly November 29th.

Three in 2014, approximately every four months. Pretty amazing.

Clearly they are happy with this stage of the development and producing these prototypes and flying them fairly rapidly now.

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I heard that (not confirmed) there is no #2014 because they jump over this number and make #2015 instead. 4 is an unlucky number in chinese or japanese which means die, and in chinese ,14 means "going to die".
You know a J-10B with AL-31FN crashed in November.

RickHunter said:

I heard that (not confirmed) there is no #2014 because they jump over this number and make #2015 instead. 4 is an unlucky number in chinese or japanese which means die, and in chinese ,14 means "going to die".
You know a J-10B with AL-31FN crashed in November.

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That is nonsense. PLA is never superstitious. Plus, "4" is only an unlucky # among people speaking Cantonese because of how the number is pronounced in Cantonese. "4" has never been a bad # to Chinese who speak Mandarin. In fact, one of the main dishes served on traditional Chinese weddings is called "4 happy meatballs". #4 only became "bad" after the 90's when popular culture in Hong Kong became famous in the Mainland. The PLA would never follow such nonsense superstition.

Plus, what does the J-10B with AL-31FN have anything to do with "4"? 3+1 (in AL31FN) = 4? That is just.......