China Geopolitical News Thread

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

nameless said:

How do you know what countries are more important to China? China is not going to better its relations with Vietnam at the expense of harming relations with Laos. In fact it can be argued that the more hostile they are to china the less important they become. Besides the poll clearly said Asia repeatedly which has nothing to do with importance. Do 11 countries represent the whole of Asia or even the majority?

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Importance of nations in international affairs is relative and changes over time. However, it's a good bet some nations will generally be more important to a country than other nations. In regards to China, you could make good arguments Bhutan is more important to her in specific situations, and you'd be right. However, countries like Bhutan and Nepal don't usually have the same strategic gravitas as countries like ROK, Vietnam, and Japan, and China would usually place more emphasis on the latter than the former. You could always point to exceptions, but those would be exceptions that prove the rule.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blackstone said:

Importance of nations in international affairs is relative and changes over time. However, it's a good bet some nations will generally be more important to a country than other nations. In regards to China, you could make good arguments Bhutan is more important to her in specific situations, and you'd be right. However, countries like Bhutan and Nepal don't usually have the same strategic gravitas as countries like ROK, Vietnam, and Japan, and China would usually place more emphasis on the latter than the former. You could always point to exceptions, but those would be exceptions that prove the rule.

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But the "essence" of the Pew polls would become irrelevant if they don't include them. After all the more voices participation the better and more value the poll is right? You can't just cherry pick only the nations that had territorial disputes with China and claiming ALL of Asia are nervous about her reemergence when the poll skips them. IF the poll wants to make a point about key importance nations that has territorial disputes with China than they should say so in the beginning and state it very clearly, otherwise it is not legit.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blackstone said:

You made good points, and our differences may be more style than substance. Nevertheless, our biggest disagreement is on item number 3-

According to the Pew article linked below, most of China's neighbors are quite concerned about her territorial disputes, and see the US more as an ally than China; which means Asian nations do indeed want US forces to stick around to balance China.

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You have taken some liberty with the information you decide to post here. You only posted two statistics of many to help you make your point. It is true that there are concerns about territorial disputes between China and her neighbours in the region. But the region with the exception of Japan, Vietnam, the Philipinnes and India are generally quite positive towards China. Just like there is widespread opposition against US drone strikes and cyber espionage but the attitude of a majority of people are still positive toward the US.

Territorial disputes isn't the only thing that people see or know about China. Just as Cyber espionage and drone strikes or the Iraq War aren't the only things that people see and know about the US. People see these things as a part of a larger picture.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Franklin said:

You have taken some liberty with the information you decide to post here. You only posted two statistics of many to help you make your point. It is true that there are concerns about territorial disputes between China and her neighbours in the region. But the region with the exception of Japan, Vietnam, the Philipinnes and India are generally quite positive towards China. Just like there is widespread opposition against US drone strikes and cyber espionage but the attitude of a majority of people are still positive toward the US.

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What liberties I take? What's in the rest of the Pew survey that disprove my claim some of China's most important and consequential neighbors are nervous about her reemergence and don't trust her sweet words of "peaceful rise?" There are many other polls that show most Asian countries want the US to maintain her presence. Simply put, most look to China for economic growth and to America for security; they want to benefit from both US and China, and they don't want to be forced into choosing sides.

Territorial disputes isn't the only thing that people see or know about China. Just as Cyber espionage and drone strikes or the Iraq War aren't the only things that people see and know about the US. People see these things as a part of a larger picture.

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True statement, but they don't change the fundamental premise that most Asian nations want the US-alliance to balance/constrain rising Chinese power.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Franklin said:

You have taken some liberty with the information you decide to post here. You only posted two statistics of many to help you make your point. It is true that there are concerns about territorial disputes between China and her neighbours in the region. But the region with the exception of Japan, Vietnam, the Philipinnes and India are generally quite positive towards China. Just like there is widespread opposition against US drone strikes and cyber espionage but the attitude of a majority of people are still positive toward the US.

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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you want a serious discussion and not just going for drive-by points.

What liberties I take? What's in the rest of the Pew survey that disprove my claim some of China's most important and consequential neighbors are nervous about her reemergence and don't trust her claims of "peaceful rise?" There are many other polls that show most Asian countries want the US to maintain her presence. Simply put, most look to China for economic growth and to America for security; they want to benefit from both US and China, and they don't want to be forced into choosing sides.

Territorial disputes isn't the only thing that people see or know about China. Just as Cyber espionage and drone strikes or the Iraq War aren't the only things that people see and know about the US. People see these things as a part of a larger picture.

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True statement, but they don't change the fundamental premise that most Asian nations want the US-alliance to balance/constrain rising Chinese power.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blackstone said:

Importance of nations in international affairs is relative and changes over time. However, it's a good bet some nations will generally be more important to a country than other nations. In regards to China, you could make good arguments Bhutan is more important to her in specific situations, and you'd be right. However, countries like Bhutan and Nepal don't usually have the same strategic gravitas as countries like ROK, Vietnam, and Japan, and China would usually place more emphasis on the latter than the former. You could always point to exceptions, but those would be exceptions that prove the rule.

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What emphasis are you talking about? How does China emphasis Vietnam over Laos? Or the Philippines over central Asian states? You are essentially saying because Vietnam and Philippines have disputes with China therefore they are important to China. You are equating tensions with importance, which makes your logic about the poll absurd.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

nameless said:

What emphasis are you talking about? How does China emphasis Vietnam over Laos? Or the Philippines over central Asian states? You are essentially saying because Vietnam and Philippines have disputes with China therefore they are important to China. You are equating tensions with importance, which makes your logic about the poll absurd.

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If you honestly believe all nations are equally important to China, or to any other nation, then I have some swamp land to sell you on Mars. And if you still maintain your stance after reading this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Blackstone said:

If you honestly believe all nations are equally important to China, or to any other nation, then I have some swamp land to sell you on Mars. And if you still maintain your stance after reading this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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I never said they are all equally important. In fact I pointed out that the more hostile they are to china the less important they become. China and Russia are strategic partners for example, obviously not true about China and Japan. So obviously countries that China calls strategic partners are what China emphasis on. Of course these relationships are not fix they can change over time depending on the strategic environment.

Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

nameless said:

I never said they are all equally important. In fact I pointed out that the more hostile they are to china the less important they become. China and Russia are strategic partners for example, obviously not true about China and Japan. So obviously countries that China calls strategic partners are what China emphasis on. Of course these relationships are not fix they can change over time depending on the strategic environment.

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The fallacy here is that just because some country is important to you, doesn't mean you need to give them more concessions.

Look at Canada and China, both critically important to the US, and see what kind of concessions they get. Now look at countries like Israel, Saudi Arabia and Japan.

You give out concessions not because someone is important to you, but because you think you will get something better in return.

Guys, this really isn't going anywhere. Let's move on to the next news item.