Kissinger: Conflict with China not an option

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Mr_C said:
Hows it going, have not been here for a while. Well my friend no country would be easily manipulated by the USA to fight China. The geopolitical and strategic interest have changed alot in the last 10 yrs and will change more in the next 10yrs.
The Australians have already made it very clear to the USA that they will not help the USA out in a war with CHina.

did i say too much?

No.

Fairthoughts response as usual was brilliant.

I think you made some good points, however Australia although not directly
saying that it will be opposing China is part of a group to do so.

See for instance the article below on Australia military purchases

It's not necessary to go all the way with the USA

March 9, 2006

Australia is capable of playing a more independent role in the Middle East, writes Anthony Bubalo.
AdvertisementAdvertisement

LAST Friday, the Defence Minister, Brendan Nelson, announced that Australia would acquire four long-range, heavy-lift aircraft capable of moving soldiers and equipment to far-flung battlefields. Like the plan to buy large troopships for the navy, the acquisition is consistent with the Government's effort to project military power well beyond Australia's shores.

The obvious question is: to project power where? A recent government statement provides a clue. A curious line in Australia's national security, published in November last year as an "update" to the 2000 defence white paper, reads: "Australia's vital interests are inextricably linked to the achievement of peace and security in the Middle East."

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ostensibly this is supposed to be for power projection in 'the middle east' this like the convenient term 'anti-terrorist' measures is just a cover for what's really going on and the Australian author is wise enough to point out that

What makes the Middle East truly "vital" to Australia is where its conflicts intersect with key national interests in Asia.

Middle Eastern oil, for example, increasingly fuels a Chinese economy whose health is central to Australian prosperity and regional security; on present trends the region will supply China with more than half its oil by 2010 and almost three-quarters by 2030.

Instability in the Middle East, therefore, threatens Chinese economic growth (and ours). It could also undermine a hitherto harmonious Sino-US relationship should missteps or misunderstandings result from Beijing's active energy diplomacy in the region - a diplomacy that is deepening its links to US foes such as Iran and Sudan.

Ties between the Middle East and Islamic Asia are also growing. The extent to which Middle Eastern ideas have radicalised Muslims in the region is often overstated. There is no doubt that Islamist and fundamentalist currents from countries in the region have had an impact in South-East Asia, most notably in Indonesia. The politics and conflicts of the Middle East often echo in our region.

This is really an attempt to control China's growth via control of oil.

If anybody is in any doubt see the new attempt to form a India-Australia
pact

Australia, India to explore nuclear pact

Australia and India will set up a working group to explore the detail of a nuclear pact that has put the issue of Australian uranium sales in the spotlight.

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walter

Junior Member
Fairthought said:
Kissinger's ariticle was far from insightful.

It basically says, if you can't destroy China as a functional entity, you're best strategy is a peaceful road pursuing mutual economic benefits. You don't need a genius to tell you that.

nowhere did he state "since we can't destroy China, let's do business with them"--Your statement implies Kissinger would favor China's destruction if it were at all feasible--I did not find anything in his article remotely supporting that.

His claim that there are few asian countries willing to ally with America in any cold war against China is simply false. Easily manipulated followers are: Japan, Australia, Taiwan, and South Korea. Even India would be interested. And of course, Western Europe, which is not an asian country but is nonetheless a significant trading block.

Mr_C already made the point. Even if all those countries you do name were to side with the US in a confrontation over China (never happen) they are still just a few countries in Asia (albeit powerful), but there are dozens more that would have nothing to do with it, or in fact side with China.


The current European military technology sales embargo against China is an example of US followers assisting America in an escalating cold war with China. Its continued existence is due solely to US pressure.

could very well be as you say, yet there are still some in Europe firmly against the sale of military hardware to China based purely on their own convictions and not those stipulated to them by Washington.

If the article seems rosy and peacenik, it is only because Kissinger is speaking as the head of a consulting company that profits off of investments in China. This is something Kissinger freely admits in his own article, but it bears repeating.

Keeping this self-interest in mind, one understands why Kissinger chose not to discuss the strategy of 'destroying China as a functional entity.'

Just my opinion, but I think Kissinger's article has far more to do with his convictions and personal analysis of China than his personal financial interests.
Let us also keep in mind that Kissinger was National Security Advisor during Nixon's administration and was instrumental in the normalization between the US and China achieved in 1972. So, he may very well have personal self-interest at mind since he personally helped the two countries in this matter--he doesn't want to see his hard work from those times shattered by ignorance.

But there are American strategists who are advocating just that agenda. You will see them in the PNAC (Project for the New American Century -see Cheney), and you will find Hawkish Pentagon Pundits, like Robert Kaplan, who have the ear of Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld.

Yes, and in his article Kissinger warns against "a hectoring tone" among other things on the side of the US. In my opinion, although Kissinger has tact and would not state so directly, he means just the sort of things that the Cheney's, Rumsfeld's, etc. sometimes blow out their holes.

btw, Kissinger is also part of the extremely powerful Carlyle group, the largest private equity firm in the world, that uses ex-presidents (and other illustrious names) to leverage inside deals with world governments for huge profits. In just 14 years, the group has grown to $30 billion for an average 34% nominal return.

That's outstanding performance, too bad I can't invest in Carlyle stock!
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
walter said:
nowhere did he state "since we can't destroy China, let's do business with them"--Your statement implies Kissinger would favor China's destruction if it were at all feasible--I did not find anything in his article remotely supporting that.

Mr_C already made the point. Even if all those countries you do name were to side with the US in a confrontation over China (never happen) they are still just a few countries in Asia (albeit powerful), but there are dozens more that would have nothing to do with it, or in fact side with China.

could very well be as you say, yet there are still some in Europe firmly against the sale of military hardware to China based purely on their own convictions and not those stipulated to them by Washington.

Just my opinion, but I think Kissinger's article has far more to do with his convictions and personal analysis of China than his personal financial interests.
Let us also keep in mind that Kissinger was National Security Advisor during Nixon's administration and was instrumental in the normalization between the US and China achieved in 1972. So, he may very well have personal self-interest at mind since he personally helped the two countries in this matter--he doesn't want to see his hard work from those times shattered by ignorance.

Yes, and in his article Kissinger warns against "a hectoring tone" among other things on the side of the US. In my opinion, although Kissinger has tact and would not state so directly, he means just the sort of things that the Cheney's, Rumsfeld's, etc. sometimes blow out their holes.


That's outstanding performance, too bad I can't invest in Carlyle stock!

How would you propose that ANY country destroy China ? kissinger is interested in ensuring that america remains THE dominent power in the 21st century. His advice is that the policy of military containment of the USSR put forward by Keenan in the famous Mr X letter will not work with China.

Therefore he is proposing an alternative strategy his warning to China is that

China needs to be careful about policies that seem to exclude America from Asia and about U.S. sensitivities regarding human rights, which will influence the flexibility and scope of America's stance toward China.

If you try to reduce our influence in Asia we will respond by playing the human rights card and supporting Anti-Han movements as well as pro-democracy movements in China. The above is an extremely old strategy even the Romans used it as an excuse to interfere in the affairs of other states.

See the article below for how China and Pakistan will respond to the above
threat

Thursday, February 23, 2006 E-Mail this article to a friend Printer Friendly Version

Pakistan will stand by China against US ‘siege’, says Rashid

BEIJING: Pakistan will stand by China if the US ever tries to “besiege” it, Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmad has said. He said this while talking to a private television channel in Beijing on Wednesday.

Rashid said that President Pervez Musharraf’s visit to China will open new avenues of development and cooperation between the two countries in all sectors. Pakistan and China have signed 42 bilateral agreements during the president’s current visit, 13 of which have been reached at the government level and 27 are between the traders and entrepreneurs of both countries.

These accords are aimed at boosting cooperation in economy, defence, trade and the social sector. The information minister said that Pakistan and China are jointly manufacturing an F-17 thunder combat aircraft. He said that the test-flight of a second combat plane, an F-10, is scheduled for today (Thursday).

He said that Musharraf told the Chinese leadership that Pakistan wanted full membership of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). He said that Russian President Vladimir Putin, due to visit China next month, along with the Chinese leadership will help Pakistan acquire SCO membership. Cooperation of other SCO members – Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan – will also be sought, he said.

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Fairthought

Junior Member
I have been misinterpreted.


I never said there were countries willing to support america in a confrontation with China. I said there are countries willing to support america in a COLD WAR with China. I even gave an example with the European Union military technology embargo.

Notice, this cold war is not as cold as the one between US/USSR. Not yet anyway. It is fundamentally different in nature due to the high level of economic trade. This means there will be less overt challenges in the manner of 'bay of pigs' or olympic boycotts. Instead, it will be dominated by a flurry of covert activity

There are others, who are seeking ways to destroy China as a functional entity. The plan is to make China implode, like the Soviet Union. The plan takes advantage of the opening of China's economy to foreign influence (and subversive agents) and when they are ready these agents will strike with another 'color' revolution. This was tried in Tianenmen Square prematurely. But China's economic opening will make it easier for the US to try again next time.

China will be divided and its economy will collapse. The subversive agents will take over the countries and the successor states will be exploited economically for foreigners, while indenturing themselves to the West with impossibly huge debts.

Unlike Russia, China does not have Huge oil reserves to pull themselves out of perpetual debt. If this plan succeeds, China's future is very grim.

This bears repeating: Kissinger is speaking as the head of a consulting company that profits off of investments in China. It just so happens, his financial plans don't really obstruct the plans for 'destroying China as a functional entity' either.
 

taijisheng

New Member
Fairthought said:
I have been misinterpreted.
I never said there were countries willing to support america in a confrontation with China. I said there are countries willing to support america in a COLD WAR with China. I even gave an example with the European Union military technology embargo.

Notice, this cold war is not as cold as the one between US/USSR. Not yet anyway. It is fundamentally different in nature due to the high level of economic trade. This means there will be less overt challenges in the manner of 'bay of pigs' or olympic boycotts. Instead, it will be dominated by a flurry of covert activity

There are huge differences though between current China and the old USSR. Current china is economically powerful, and have been acting as the economic engine of whole south east asia for 20 years, many countries, including all the ones you named, are depending more or less on China's growth, at same time, none of them execpt taiwan face millitary threat. The old USSR had no economical ties with any western countrys and was a huge millitary threat. It's just simply impossible for those countries to join a cold war against china, because they can't afford the loss and the U.S is not going to compensate them for that.

In the event of a millitary crisis or a real war, I can image though that Japan and Australia may take side of the U.S, but not Taiwan, unless Taiwanese want the war to be fought on their island.
 

JonMan

New Member
Registered Member
War is not feasible for anyone. I'm thinking there will be a depression if some of the top economic powers fight. George Bush Sr. and Clinton explored possibility of fighting China, but they feared their military, but economic consequences even more.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Well, I never cease to be amazed:confused: :(

I took what I believed to be a soothing and pacific article and never once dreamed that such a fight would break out over it.

In the first instance the article (and this forum) and entirely Sino-Centric, so the view should be simple based on that world view.

In the sceond, irrespective of what people think about Kissenger, he is who he is, - to whit, a very well respected elder statesman of the USA. His views; be they from his time in Office, or relating to the people he now represents, are listened too. He speaks for and on behalf, of many powerful figures in the USA and it is generally comforting to know that these are the words they use rather than those of some populist junior Senator from the Mid West.

Now of course some might say, that the underlying sentiments may not be that different, it is simply that the Kissengers of this world are far more clever and infinitly more dangerous. But that would probably be both flaming and highly offtopic;)
 

Abcdweller

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I'm baffled at the attitude of this forum. First of all where do all these english speaking chinese nationalists come from? Hong kong?

It seems like this site was set up by a british guy. I'm not exactly sure who would be interested in these details of the chinese military except for government professionals, and I hardly think they need a public website for it.

You guys seem to be debating some strange topics. Of course India wants to develop its economy. Of course countries like Australia, etc. want to avoid conflict between the US and China. Of course Kissinger is known to be a China dove from his days in the Nixon administration. At the same time of course he is an American and when he speaks publicly does so under the assumption of the American interest. I don't see why these things generate such heated debate.

And I dont' see whats wrong with calling a zionist a zionist, but I've seen no evidence that kissinger is a zionist. He's not exceptionally outspoken on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Abcdweller said:
I'm baffled at the attitude of this forum. First of all where do all these english speaking chinese nationalists come from? Hong kong?

It seems like this site was set up by a british guy. I'm not exactly sure who would be interested in these details of the chinese military except for government professionals, and I hardly think they need a public website for it.

You guys seem to be debating some strange topics. Of course India wants to develop its economy. Of course countries like Australia, etc. want to avoid conflict between the US and China. Of course Kissinger is known to be a China dove from his days in the Nixon administration. At the same time of course he is an American and when he speaks publicly does so under the assumption of the American interest. I don't see why these things generate such heated debate.

And I dont' see whats wrong with calling a zionist a zionist, but I've seen no evidence that kissinger is a zionist. He's not exceptionally outspoken on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Hi abcd this forum is for weird people like us who want to discuss
weird esoteric subjects like 'the indian economy'....:)

Really 'normal' people like yourself need not be concerned by us
'strange' people. Why don't you go home and have a muffin with a
nice cup of tea. :(

'One born every minute....' *thinks to himself*
 

Abcdweller

Just Hatched
Registered Member
FreeAsia2000 said:
Hi abcd this forum is for weird people like us who want to discuss
weird esoteric subjects like 'the indian economy'....:)

Really 'normal' people like yourself need not be concerned by us
'strange' people. Why don't you go home and have a muffin with a
nice cup of tea. :(

'One born every minute....' *thinks to himself*

:rofl: :rofl:

I meant you were taking strange approaches to things. Perhaps I'm only too used to the western perspective because I only read the western media. I've never seen anything quite like this forum however. I think I'm the really weird one.
 
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