China's SCS Strategy Thread

solarz

Brigadier
And while we're on the subject of fear and anxiety, which nation sent a heavily-armed 3000-ton warship to arrest fishermen? Which nation's coast guard murdered foreign fishermen with machine guns? Which nation's government later told bald-faced lies in order to cover-up said murders?

Not China.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
And while we're on the subject of fear and anxiety, which nation sent a heavily-armed 3000-ton warship to arrest fishermen? Which nation's coast guard murdered foreign fishermen with machine guns? Which nation's government later told bald-faced lies in order to cover-up said murders?

Not China.

The best one is that Vietnam sent a party of prostitutes onto a Philippine controled island in Spratly, to show their brotherly love with their holiday celebrations... while the Filipinos are getting happy and drunk... they stormed the island and occupied as their own.
:D

yep. it happened. true story. this is the side that west is backing then I would say they backed some very unscrupulous horses.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
On the applicability of law to island disputes etc.

What i am saying in my post is that as a body of international law, UNCLOS, for all intents and purposes, is not meant to strengthen ones argument on a land feature. as some in the dispute has openly stated (reign in china with UNCLOS court system etc) or as implied in the media. no where in UNCLOS state or implied so.

China is not claiming the whole body of water in SCS. it's 9-dash claim is only claiming land features, which UNCLOS does not apply.

Every time UNCLOS is brought up to discuss SCS issues I (quietly) scream at the TV or the newspaper or the Computer monitor because it is completely irrelevant. It pains me to see that US diplomats are bringing this up as it has anything to do with it.

The body of laws that pertaining to these territorial disputes are the body of laws that apply to every other territorial disputes, for example, ongoing ones between US and Canada.
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What's the normal way people settle these disputes? Bilateral negotiations.

why Bilateral? because a multi-lateral international conferences that deals with very technical details of nature of border disputes does not have a good track record of keeping a lasting peace...

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why? may be because these multilateral ones are liable to influence by geopolitical machination by political powers?

===

btw. china has settled ALL of its land border disputes with its neighbors with exception of India. between China and Vietnam they even amicably settled their ocean boundary in the gulf of tonkins, despite having a war only 35 years earlier. Those who says bilateral territorial negotiations with china are doomed to failure are simply ill informed and prejudiced as the evidence shows other wise.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Never said you have, Jeff. If I am referring to anyone, it would be to the likes of Kerry, who is still calling on China to "clarify" its position, when that position has been crystal clear for 60 years, or the likes of Aquino, who is constantly repeating the falsehood that China is claiming open seas as its territory.
If China's position in SCS is so clear, kindly explain the exact nature of the 9-dash line (AKA Cow Tongue). Does China claim all land and water within the cow tongue? What's China's views on UNCLOS clause on Continental shelf, especially as it pertains to other claimants in the SCS? China has definitely not been completely clear for any length of time, let alone 60 years.

I don't see why the EEZ and territorial waters based around the islands in the SCS would be different from the EEZ and territorial waters around any other piece of sovereign land.
Good point, and if you truly felt that way, then you would also agree China should employ the same definition on foreign activities in its EEZ as other countries. Right?

As for fear and anxiety, I would ask this question: there are 7 claimants in the SCS dispute. How many of them are experiencing "fear and anxiety"? For example, why is the Philippines anxious while Malaysia, by all accounts, is not? I would submit that it is not China's actions that are causing fear and anxiety in the region.
Um, maybe its because China didn't use its professional harassment fleet (AKA China Coast Guard) to kick out Malaysian fisherman from certain lagoons?

It's not unreasonable to believe Japan and the Philippines are actively trying to create hostile incidents that will ensnare the US into confrontations with China. But it's also reasonable to think China has overreacted and played into Aquino and Abe's hands.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

Never said you have, Jeff. If I am referring to anyone, it would be to the likes of Kerry, who is still calling on China to "clarify" its position, when that position has been crystal clear for 60 years, or the likes of Aquino, who is constantly repeating the falsehood that China is claiming open seas as its territory.



I don't see why the EEZ and territorial waters based around the islands in the SCS would be different from the EEZ and territorial waters around any other piece of sovereign land.

As for fear and anxiety, I would ask this question: there are 7 claimants in the SCS dispute. How many of them are experiencing "fear and anxiety"? For example, why is the Philippines anxious while Malaysia, by all accounts, is not? I would submit that it is not China's actions that are causing fear and anxiety in the region.

EEZ claims are completely different beast when it comes to islands and mainland features.

Islands gets "less weigh" as oppose to a larger land mass. normally one would not base its 200 nm EEZ claims out from an island.

there is a entire body of international law and precedents that can be applied to EEZ claims...which is why I said earlier that it is a seemingly bizarre possibility that it is easier to settle EEZ claims in SCS then to settle territorial claims.

but do note that in International law (at least under UNCLOS), EEZ boundries does not affect land features. meaning the fact that an island is just happens to be in your EEZ does not strengthen your claim on that island.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The best one is that Vietnam sent a party of prostitutes onto a Philippine controled island in Spratly, to show their brotherly love with their holiday celebrations... while the Filipinos are getting happy and drunk... they stormed the island and occupied as their own.
:D

yep. it happened. true story. this is the side that west is backing then I would say they backed some very unscrupulous horses.

Vietnam's case is interesting, because part of their claims on the islands in the SCS is an inheritance from French seizure of the Parcel Islands (from China) in 1938. China's answer is the same as what Leonidas said to Xerxes: come take them!
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

If China's position in SCS is so clear, kindly explain the exact nature of the 9-dash line (AKA Cow Tongue). Does China claim all land and water within the cow tongue? What's China's views on UNCLOS clause on Continental shelf, especially as it pertains to other claimants in the SCS? China has definitely not been completely clear for any length of time, let alone 60 years.

I have already answered this a couple of posts up. Read it.


Um, maybe its because China didn't use its professional harassment fleet (AKA China Coast Guard) to kick out Malaysian fisherman from certain lagoons?

It's not unreasonable to believe Japan and the Philippines are actively trying to create hostile incidents that will ensnare the US into confrontations with China. But it's also reasonable to think China has overreacted and played into Aquino and Abe's hands.

If you're referring to the Scarborough Shoal incident, you might want to brush up on your knowledge of how that incident started.

If you term China's maritime surveillance agency as a "professional harassment fleet", then you should have no problem calling the Filipino coast guard a "professional murder and extortion fleet".
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
China is not claiming the whole body of water in SCS. it's 9-dash claim is only claiming land features, which UNCLOS does not apply.
Kindly address these two questions-
1) Can you link relevant government statements to that effect?
2) Why is China's definition of freedom of navigation different from the rest of the world?
 

solarz

Brigadier
Re: East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

EEZ claims are completely different beast when it comes to islands and mainland features.

Islands gets "less weigh" as oppose to a larger land mass. normally one would not base its 200 nm EEZ claims out from an island.

there is a entire body of international law and precedents that can be applied to EEZ claims...which is why I said earlier that it is a seemingly bizarre possibility that it is easier to settle EEZ claims in SCS then to settle territorial claims.

but do note that in International law (at least under UNCLOS), EEZ boundries does not affect land features. meaning the fact that an island is just happens to be in your EEZ does not strengthen your claim on that island.

Fair enough, I don't believe Chinese officials have, at any point, said that they plan on treating SCS island EEZs different from any other island EEZs, as established in international law.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Vietnam's case is interesting, because part of their claims on the islands in the SCS is an inheritance from French seizure of the Parcel Islands (from China) in 1938. China's answer is the same as what Leonidas said to Xerxes: come take them!

Yeah very flimsy at best. we can drew same parallels with india's territorial claims based on younghusband's mission and Survey of India done by the British.

none of this has anything to do with reality. The true motivation is all very material. resources, security and lebensraum.

its bit unfortunate that historically china has had the most advanced naval history and the most developed historical record keeping in East Asia up until 19th century.

===

anyways...

one thing I think one need to keep constantly in mind is that.

The (belligerent) methods by which Vietnam / Philippines used to obtained their current vast island possession in SCS is much more brutal than China is using today to enforce its claims. They use 50 cal instead of water canons.

I do believe that in International law, by which method you obtain your current possessions, does affect how legitimate your claim is.

my interest are simple, to uphold international law. and to do so one must punish those that uses force and reward those that uses restraint.
 
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