052/052B Class Destroyers

MwRYum

MwRYum

Major
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

by78 said:
If 052D ends its production run at 12 as they say, then China will have a sizable contingent of 18 Aegis-type DDGs by 2018/19, all with AESA arrays no less, and we haven't even talked about 055s. The balance of naval power is definitely shifting very fast in the Western Pacific.
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In any case, the 052D represent the final iteration of the 052B/C/D hull design because to pack more firepower, they'd need a bigger hull. The "D" variant represents for the first time PLAN principle surface combatant possess offensive capability beyond engaging naval targets - if the "educated guess" surrounding its VLS is indeed accurate, sea-launched LACM capability will no longer be a USN monopoly in East Asia theatre. Thus while the 052D still rather short in terms of firepower, getting them into battle order will still warrant caution in Washington and Tokyo when comes to their naval strategies against China in the coming decade...meanwhile, China could afford some breathing room when churning out the successor design.
 
by78

by78

General
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:
In any case, the 052D represent the final iteration of the 052B/C/D hull design because to pack more firepower, they'd need a bigger hull. The "D" variant represents for the first time PLAN principle surface combatant possess offensive capability beyond engaging naval targets - if the "educated guess" surrounding its VLS is indeed accurate, sea-launched LACM capability will no longer be a USN monopoly in East Asia theatre. Thus while the 052D still rather short in terms of firepower, getting them into battle order will still warrant caution in Washington and Tokyo when comes to their naval strategies against China in the coming decade...meanwhile, China could afford some breathing room when churning out the successor design.
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055 with LACM is the logical next step, and I hope it also comes with enhanced anti-submarine warfare capabilities. A Chinese SSGN would also add nicely to a robust standoff strike capability, but that's a bit off topic.

Interesting times ahead for Guam, Kadena, Okinawa, et al.
 
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Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

To be fair, the PLA doesn't really need LACM equipped DDGs to strike targets in the first or even second island chain. They'll be useful no doubt, but they have an existing apparatus which is already quite formidable.

Also, the ROKN's Sejong class have LACM capability already as well, so the USN's "monopoly" on naval LACM was broken a few years back.


what the 052C, 052D, and in future 055, all do, is give the PLAN the meat of a true, internationally competitive, blue water navy. They capability each ship itself offers over the other isn't game changing per se, but rather incremental. However the numbers and the speed in which they will be procured is their power.

The first boat of the second batch of 052Cs entered service early 2013, the last of 12 052Ds is expected to be commissioned in 2018. 4 052Cs and 12 052Ds - 16 DDGs entering service within a span of six, seven years tops - there are few navies with that kind of overall fleet and fewer nations again with the industry to support that kind of construction.

And of course, we have yet to see the bottom of the barrel for DDGs and FFGs alike — they are years away from reaching a critical mass. Who knows what the PLAN will look like by 2020 or even 2025?

Indeed it is somewhat disconcerting that barely any defence analysts have properly speculated just how large the PLAN will seek to expand before stopping. I wonder if the answer is perhaps one they'd rather ignore.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Jeff Head said:
We used to in these United States.

But the last carrier not built at Newport News was the USS Constellation, CV-64, which was launched from the Brooklyn Navy Yard in October 1960. She was built at the same time as the USS Kitty Hawk CV-63, which was built at the New York Shipbuilding Corporation Yards in New Jersey and was launched in May 1960. Then you consider that the USS Enterprise CVN-65, was launched at Newport News in September 1960.

So, back in the late 1950s into 1960, the US Navy was building three super carriers at once. Heck of a naval shipbuilding capability to be able to build three supercarriers simultaneously at three different yards...Camden, New Jersey, Brooklyn, New York, and Newport News, Virginia. Real hay days they were.
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Thanks for the history lesson never really thought about that but yeah those were the good old days. Nowadays when you build a carrier every 4 or 5 years I guess it doesn't make as much financial sense to have two different shipyards building them.
ok sorry tfor the OT.. back to Liaoning.
 
vincent

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

SSGN makes far better LACM carriers than surface ships. They can get close to the shore unseen and launch their load in closed proximity with no warning, unlike the surface ships like type 52D. It makes more sense to use the surface ships to provide escort service
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

vincent said:
SSGN makes far better LACM carriers than surface ships. They can get close to the shore unseen and launch their load in closed proximity with no warning, unlike the surface ships like type 52D. It makes more sense to use the surface ships to provide escort service
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True from a tactical standpoint however a SSGN while very good at what it does is basically a single mission boat. A destroyer OTOH can do a hundred other things and in most missions you need your asset in place that is able to be flexible and carry out multiple mission requirements. Let's also not forget about making a statement. Parking a large surface combatant or capital ship on someone's doorstep can convey a political message much more effectively than a submarine especially if it's the doorstep of a less capable adversary or some rogue nation. Of course a carrier is the best type of asset for that but the fundemental idea is the same.

SSGN is a very 'niche' weapons platform and only the most financially capable Navy would even want to consider that.
 
asif iqbal

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

I read somewhere that a Ohio Class SSGN can unload its entire canister of 154 Tomahawks in under 6 minutes that's the for power a SSGN brings to the fight
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

MwRYum said:
It hardly matters what China thinks of itself, even by following the most modest path of resurgence, it's still a rising power that, in the eyes of Washington and Tokyo, needs to be stopped, or at least detracted. It's all business really, a natural course in human civilization being repeated over and over - Alexander's Macedonia conquered the Persian Empire, Roman Republic crushed the Carthaginian Empire, various conflicts in the 500 years preceding the Victorian Era that sets the global order before World War I, World War II, Cold War...the Americans, despite their short history, understands the struggles that'd require of them to stay at the top.

Now, with the current projections by the more "educated guesses", the PLA as a whole will see vast improvement by the year 2020...that said, the pre-emptive actions by the US-led Western powers against China will begin before 2020, most likely in the 2nd half of this decade - not necessary major conflicts but a few regional ones.

But where do 052D DDG fits in all this? Until PLAN carrier operations evolved from ski-jump to "proper" aircraft carrier, the offensive punch (the lion share if not the entirety of it) of its battlegroup will fall upon the LACM-capable 052D DDGs. As such, the 052Cs and 054As will shoulder most of the air defence, while the 052Ds have its loadout options pack probably more than half of its VLS with LACMs, leaving a small portion of canisters housing quad-packed SAMs for its own air defence.

Thus, in the era of war that is fast approaching, 052D DDGs is the only thing that can deliver such firepower for the PLAN, AND can be available in numbers in such short period of time, for the 2nd half of the decade is merely 2 years away; the successor design of the 052D is perhaps what the PLAN yearns for all this time, but even with accelerated efforts it just won't be ready in time.
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Well, the importance of 052D's land attack capability depends on whether a fully loaded J-15 can take off from Liaoning's ski jump.

Personally, I think you are overstating the importance of the 052D (and even carrier strike), for a regional scenario. Most if not all of the relevant bases in the region can be targeted by existing weapons and even land based LACMs. Sure, an aircraft carrier with a few strike capable DDGs will certainly add flexibility and cut down on transit time, but in the western pacific, the Chinese mainland can discharge a large amount of land attack capability on its own.


For a contingency in the local region, I expect naval land attack to be second place to 2nd Arty + land based air power.
052D and carriers will no doubt be far more useful in a power projection scenario in distant regions of the world where mainland SRBMs, MRBMs, and LACMs simply cannot reach. But within the confines of the western pacific, against a modern foe and an array of bases that can be hit by other means, carrier and destroyer based strike is not as important.



I also find your belief of a 2020 war rather pessimistic, and I don't feel the urgency to add large strike capable ships.
 
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L

Lion

Senior Member
Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

vincent said:
SSGN makes far better LACM carriers than surface ships. They can get close to the shore unseen and launch their load in closed proximity with no warning, unlike the surface ships like type 52D. It makes more sense to use the surface ships to provide escort service
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It cannot provided the critical air defense of fleet nor air space denial due to lack of aerial radar and long range SAM but destroyer can. As some mention, SSGN is more like a one dimension platform.
 
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Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Re: PLAN Type 052 Class Destroyer

Lion said:
It cannot provided the critical air defense of fleet nor air space denial due to lack of aerial radar and long range SAM but destroyer can.
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He is only talking about LACM carrying capability. SSGN in that sense is much superior to a surface ship.

Obviously a destroyer or whatever can do air defence better than a SSGN because the latter is a submarine (lol) but we are not comparing air defence capability but their roles as cruise missile carriers.
 
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