East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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Scyth

Junior Member
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

so according to your theory, china may send jets to her neighbours' adiz & if met with interceptionsc may she respond by sending her jet to intercept them?

It's not about intercepting the interceptors by China. It's about that neighbouring countries can't accuse China of being the only one ignoring others' ADIZ rules.

Well, actually they can and probably will, but China can respond and say: none of you follow my ADIZ rules so don't blame me when not following your ADIZ rules. Furthermore, we don't immediately send military aircraft to intercept intruding flights, so who is agressive here?
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

I'm actually curious about whether Japan and SK's ADIZ actually overlap and which side the US will take in that case, haha.

But anyway this is irrelevant to this thread. However here's something that's relevant.

In a press briefing today (28th November Beijing Time), when asked about comments regarding "Japan and the United States may request China to dismantle its ADIZ together with the International Community", China's MoD spokesman said "Japan had set up her ADIZ as early as 1969, she has absolutely no right whatsoever requesting China to dismantle her own ADIZ. If we talk about dismantling (of ADIZ), we would like to ask Japan to dismantle hers first, and we will consider (dismantle our own) 44 years later"

That's some 'attitude' there by the MoD indeed.

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This is the news link on ifeng.com, a HK press. Sorry I can't find the English news yet, but I've translated the most interesting (based on personal opinion that is) part of that whole briefing.

For a few seconds I couldn't believe they actually said that last part. It wasn't childish as much as it was in your face. They're pretty much answering Japanese concerns over the ADIZ with "Yeah it's there. Deal with it"

I just love that reply. Have not decided yet if I mean it in a good or bad way:D
 

BigWang

Banned Idiot
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Since JAL has announced that it will not comply with Chinese regulations with respect to its ADIZ, it is time for China to punish JAL. The best way to punish it is to cancel its right to enter all Chinese territories for 3 months. Chinese military fighters will also begin shadowing JAL airliners as they fly through Chinese ADIZ. Even though Chinese fighters will not fire any missiles, it will definitely make any passengers on JAL planes nervous and shun that airline especially on flights passing through Chinese ADIZ.

China must do what it said it will do or else it will get into deep trouble. No one will comply with Chinese laws if China were seen to be ineffectual and unable to enforce its most basic laws.
 
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BigWang

Banned Idiot
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

What the US did to make Chinese government lose Face, CHina won't directly challenge US military but it will make US pay on the economic side.

CHinese government will Probe US tech companies like Qualcomm with Price Fixing. It will make Qualcomm lose market share and revenues. And other US tech companies too like Broadcom..etc,

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Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

What the US did to make Chinese government lose Face, CHina won't directly challenge US military but it will make US pay on the economic side.

CHinese government will Probe US tech companies like Qualcomm with Price Fixing. It will make Qualcomm lose market share and revenues. And other US tech companies too like Broadcom..etc,

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Actually the Qualcomm debacle has to do with China and now the EU worries about the NSA possible access to spying and listening through hacking personal devices and wireless equipment.
 

BigWang

Banned Idiot
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Actually the Qualcomm debacle has to do with China and now the EU worries about the NSA possible access to spying and listening through hacking personal devices and wireless equipment.

well, with this US B-52 thingy, China will punish Qualcomm much much harder. Bank on it
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

For a few seconds I couldn't believe they actually said that last part. It wasn't childish as much as it was in your face. They're pretty much answering Japanese concerns over the ADIZ with "Yeah it's there. Deal with it"

I just love that reply.


I know...one could also hear the crickets chirping after that comment by the Chinese MoD. Therefore the tactics work because the important point was made and therefore people will start investigating more about the Japanese ADIZ as well.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Since JAL has announced that it will not comply with Chinese regulations with respect to its ADIZ, it is time for China to punish JAL. The best way to punish it is to cancel its right to enter all Chinese territories for 3 months. Chinese military fighters will also begin shadowing JAL airliners as they fly through Chinese ADIZ. Even though Chinese fighters will not fire any missiles, it will definitely make any passengers on JAL planes nervous and shun that airline especially on flights passing through Chinese ADIZ.

China must do what it said it will do or else it will get into deep trouble. No one will comply with Chinese laws if China were seen to be ineffectual and unable to enforce its most basic laws.

I fully expect Japanese airlines that refuse to obey China's ADIZ to be barred from landing in China, and there's nothing wrong with that.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

well, with this US B-52 thingy, China will punish Qualcomm much much harder. Bank on it

I doubt China will overreact to the measured and mild response from the US to mollify American public, pacify Japan, reassure China's nervous neighbors, and not unnecessarily provoke China. In other words, textbook International Relations finesse by the Americans. President Obama and his team handled this hot potato well.
 

Scyth

Junior Member
Re: US incursion in new Chinese ADIZ: no reaction from China

Since JAL has announced that it will not comply with Chinese regulations with respect to its ADIZ, it is time for China to punish JAL. The best way to punish it is to cancel its right to enter all Chinese territories for 3 months. Chinese military fighters will also begin shadowing JAL airliners as they fly through Chinese ADIZ. Even though Chinese fighters will not fire any missiles, it will definitely make any passengers on JAL planes nervous and shun that airline especially on flights passing through Chinese ADIZ.

China must do what it said it will do or else it will get into deep trouble. No one will comply with Chinese laws if China were seen to be ineffectual and unable to enforce its most basic laws.

I respectfully disagree. Doing so would only harm China's international reputation (if any good left) and provide other nations and especially Japan with more anti-China ammo. Having the (economic/ military) power to enforce your ADIZ or other rules doesn't mean you should use it every time any time as this will be perceived as bullying. The deterring psychological effect of these economic/ military measures will also wear out soon. If nation X goes to defcon 1 everytime nation Y flies through X's ADIZ, no one will take that defcon 1 change serious anymore. Other members already pointed out that the ADIZ is there to counter Japanese claim of Diaoyu islands and the Japanese ADIZ, not to bully commercial organizations that don't care much about politics.

The Chinese government already stated that international/ civilian flights won't be affected so intercepting and shadowing JAL and other airlines won't be consistent with their statement and won't serve any purpose. The Japanese reaction is just another knee-jerk reaction without much thought behind it. What will they benefit if JAL or other Japanese airlines fail to fill-in flight plans? Nothing. If I'm correct, these airlines already fill-in flightplans with other civilian autorities so China can access them if necessary (correct me if I'm wrong in this aspect). These civilian flights will always answer to radio calls of Chinese ATC, if not they'll get intercepted anyways regardless of the presence of an ADIZ. I don't think that any country on earth would protest intercepting an airliner, or any other aircraft for that matter, heading directly for China and doesn't reply to any ATC radio calls. Besides radio communication, these aircraft also have transponders on board to identify themselves to ATC. Turn that thing off and you also get intercepted real soon. Furthermore, JAL and Nippon airways were already willing to comply with China's ADIZ rules. It was under Japanese pressure that they now refuse to comply. So if any measures should be taken, it must be directed towards the Japanese government instead of a civilian organization. China could release a public statement explaining that civilian aircrafts should not be used as "decoys" for hiding/ distracting military flights by turning of transponders and refusing to answer radio calls as this may, quote Japanese minister: cause dangerous situations. But I can't see the Japanese government demanding it and airlines doing so even under severe pressure of the Japanese goverment.

In my opinion, right now the Chinese government should not take any actions yet, except of course intercepting flights in ADIZ that are pose a threat to China to show that the ADIZ is real and in effect. China should not respond with knee-jerk reactions in the way Japan does/ did.

A somewhat old, short, but interesting article is:

Executive Travel said:
Why Aircraft Identification Matters

A transponder's aircraft ID signal is crucial for the flight's safety.

In January of this year, a United 777 had to divert to Toronto due to a malfunctioning transponder. It seems that coffee was inadvertently spilled onto the center console, which contained the control panel for the aircraft’s transponder. Because the coffee caused an electronic short, a hijack code was transmitted to air traffic control.

Even after that miscommunication had been cleared up, the aircraft could not continue safely to Frankfurt. (In fact, without a functioning transponder, obtaining a clearance to cross the Atlantic would have been an impossibility. More on that later.) One of ATC’s most basic requirements is to identify every aircraft “on the radar,” and today that happens via transponders.

I first learned about the idea of aircraft identification as a little boy growing up on military bases all over the world. My father would take my brothers and me to watch airplanes take off and land while he planned his flights. I was intrigued by the different types of planes, and we would have aircraft recognition contests to see who could identify each one most quickly. This early exposure gave me a head start when I entered the Marines and later went to Pensacola for Naval Flight Training. But it wasn’t until I got into flight school that I really grasped the importance of identifying aircraft—not only visually but also electronically.

Electronic flight identification with radar (RAdio Detecting And Ranging) began in the early 1940s, during World War II. Initially it was used for military purposes, but over time, the expanding civilian aviation market found it necessary to assign its aircraft these unique electronic identifiers.

The IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) device, or transponder, is a box that electronically transmits a four-digit code identifying a specific aircraft and transmits its altitude to ATC radar. In its early days, the transponder was given the code name of “parrot,” and the numeric code entered by the pilot into its database was called a “squawk.” Today, before every airliner takes to the skies, it is issued a departure clearance and an exclusive squawk that will identify it to ATC controllers.

Two types of radar are used for identifying aircraft: primary and secondary. The basic primary radar alerts controllers that an aircraft is nearby. The secondary radar interrogates the onboard transponder to transmit data, such as its unique code or its altitude. With this information, ATC can track aircraft and keep them separated as they cross a particular piece of airspace. A transponder also has many more modes, but most of them serve military purposes and can be encrypted for secrecy and stealth.

For aircraft flying internationally, the transponder becomes a critical instrument for transiting foreign airspace. Each nation is encircled by its own ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone) and, in many cases, is defended by military aircraft. For smaller nations without air forces or ATC radar, the ADIZ or FIR (Flight Information Region) acts more like an economic zone.

Each time an aircraft overflies a country’s airspace, the carrier must pay overflight fees to the host nation based on the number of air miles flown over its territory. In the U.S., our ADIZ is defended by NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command), which will scramble fighter jets to intercept any aircraft that enters our ADIZ without authorization and a proper squawk. All our advanced fighter planes can electronically identify an unknown aircraft by interrogating its squawk, and every fighter pilot is an expert in visual identification as well.

Following this article, written by a civilian pilot who served in the US military, I can't see much nations that will follow Japans' request to not comply with China's ADIZ. As the article above already states many nations have an ADIZ for safety purposes and asking other nations' airlines to not comply with it is partly dangerous and especially childish.
 
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