East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
You are either wilfully distorting the nature of an ADIZ to set up a straw man argument, or you don't know what an ADIZ is.

An ADIZ is not national airspace and any aircraft from any nation can fly any way they want in one. The US military is free to disregard China's ADIZ all they want, it just means China will scramble fighters to intercept and escort any American (or any foreign) aircraft that enters its ADIZ and don't follow the rules and procedures established.

Its not a problem for the Americans in any way, shape or form. It is a problem for Japan OTOH, because if they send aircraft over the Diaoyu Islands without following the rules for China's ADIZ, the PLAAF will scramble fighters to intercept those Japanese aircraft long before they get near 12nm of the Diaoyu Islands, and if the Japanese aircraft flies within 12nm of the Diaoyu Islands, so will the escorting PLAAF fighters.

The Japanese and the western media can whine and spin all they want, but the hard fact is, those Chinese fighters will only fly within 12nm of the Diaoyu islands because the Japanese aircraft they were monitoring did the same, and not being idiots, the Japanese should have recognised and expected that to happen.

This presents Japan with a very hard choice. They can try to call China's bluff and continue air patrols over the Diaoyu islands, but it doesn't look like China is bluffing, in which case it will set a precedent for PLAAF fighters over the Diaoyu islands. Or Japan can stop all air patrols over the Diaoyu islands themselves.

I am, of course ruling out the Japanese actual wanting to start a shooting war. But with the balance of power the way they are, if the Japanese starts a shooting war with China over the Diaoyu islands, the Japanese will loose, so it would be a pretty stupid thing for them to do, which is why I am ruling it out.
what year are you living? Japan has air tankers that can refuel their F-15s in the area.

The Chinese J-10s are single engine aircraft like the F-2 however F-2s have longer range and can refuel too,

China is making statements for people who do not know Japan has AWACS and air tankers.

the F-15 is a fighter of long range that only the Su-27 can match
 

no_name

Colonel
Putting this down as simple tit-for-tat/playing chicken is a dangerous and callous underestimating of how serious the chinese leadership is taking the issue.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
If Japan fires on China first, there's no chance the US would use her military against China. Obama can't make the case to the America public we need to help Japan (the aggressor) fight China (our largest trading partner and a nuclear-armed state) over some rocks Japan took from China in 1895. That just isn't going to fly, because Obama isn't Putin and Diaoyu isn't Georgia. I do, however, believe we will help Japan with intelligence, military advice, and other non-kinetic means.

pure fantasy, america`s service men are stationed in Japan do you understand that?
do you understand that the US air force and navy is there?
do you understand that Japan is a huge aircraft carrier?
the US will react simply because if there is a mishap, their air forces are in Japan, they won`t stay silence other wise they would not even have bases in Japan, is ilogic since the US is in Japan to protect its interests in Asia, therefore supporting Japan is supporting its interests
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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One of the biggest resistance that will present from this situation would be how the US military stationed in Okinawa would response.
Do you think they will comply just because PRC drawn a line in the sand?
I don't think so.

Define "comply".

PLAAF planes still enter Japanese ADIZ and do their recon missions despite it.
Russian bombers still test US air force responses despite a massive US ADIZ.

No one expects the US to stop surveillance activities on China despite a PRC ADIZ either.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The Chinese are playing Chicken, because the Japanese have ships there near the dispute islands, and Japan said they will shot down any drone trespassing the area.

Obviously this does not go well internally, it is ilogic to say aircraft can not pass but Japanese ships are there, China wants to try to look strong, and they just raised the odds conflict but the Japanese navy still is in the Senkaku, so obviously the JASDF won`t let those ships unguarded, since they need air cover, but Japan won`t rush up, they need to coordinate a common american-japanese policyto play the next card of Chicken

Ok, I see what you mean when you say playing chicken cards by all sides in Diaoyu islands, and there's some logic in your thoughts. But make no mistakes about it, it's great power games between two middle kingdoms (US and China), and Japan is a pawn. Should Japan become a liability rather of an asset, we'll treat it accordingly.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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what year are you living? Japan has air tankers that can refuel their F-15s in the area.

I believe their tankers are stationed in the main islands.


The Chinese J-10s are single engine aircraft like the F-2 however F-2s have longer range and can refuel too

A J-10 with three fuel tanks, two dual racks for 4 PL-12s and 2 outboard PL-8s can do its job regardless of an F-2's load out. And no F-2s are stationed near the ADIZ zone anyway, they're all F-15Js at Naha air base.

Also, let's compare the Japanese refuellers.
They have 4 KC-767s. They have a max fuel load of 73 tons.
PLAAF/PLANAF has about 24 H-6Us. Each has a max fuel load of 37 tons.

Technically each KC-767 is superior to each H-6U on basis of fuel load and range. However, the ADIZ conflict is a localized fairly close range zone, so KC-767's greater range is only important to let it enter the theatre because it is stationed so far away in the home islands.

Also, having a greater number of tankers mean greater sortie rates.

So yes, JASDF fighters can refuel. But so can PLAAF fighters. And the PLAAF has more tankers that can be in the air at any one time, and the area in which PLAAF and JASDF need to operate makes having larger fuel load/range less of a concern for tankers.

But then again, JASDF KC-767s will use a lot of fuel simply to reach a distance where they can safely refuel their aircraft, whereas PLAAF H-6Us are positioned along various bases close to China's coast.



China is making statements for people who do not know Japan has AWACS and air tankers.

Yawn, JASDF AWACS and tankers are not stationed near the outer islands like Okinawa. Even if they are, that doesn't change anything.


the F-15 is a fighter of long range that only the Su-27 can match

I don't disagree with you, but considering the ADIZ is relatively close to various PLAAF airbases, J-10s can also do the job of intercepting with decent endurance.


---

this is interesting since the Chinese are just playing chicken, the first to blink loses,

And Japan has already blinked.
Their response was to protest the ADIZ.
They didn't live up to their claim that they would shoot down foreign drones (and by association, foreign fighters) that enter diaoyu/senkaku airspace.

It wasn't a blink, it was more like a massive schizophrenic stammering.


i bet Japan still has navy vessels in the islands, and their F-15 will still fly around them i bet they are just waiting to coordinate their response based upon what is going to be the US-Japan strategy.

Good, let's hope it's better than raising a protest which is all they've done since.


Hey do you know if the F-15s are now carring the AAM-4 and AAM-5s?

I second this question. More importantly, how many are carrying AAM-4 and AAM-5?

Because I believe most are still equipped with AIM-7s.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
pure fantasy, america`s service men are stationed in Japan do you understand that?
do you understand that the US air force and navy is there?
do you understand that Japan is a huge aircraft carrier?
the US will react simply because if there is a mishap, their air forces are in Japan, they won`t stay silence other wise they would not even have bases in Japan, is ilogic since the US is in Japan to protect its interests in Asia, therefore supporting Japan is supporting its interests

Wrong! You obviously don't understand that the US is in Asia for our own interests. If it means backing Japan, then we will do it; if it means pulling a Syria, then we'll do that too.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Well that is going to be a problem since the US Air Force has a massive installation in Okinawa in which they fly in and out of everyday flying through the mentioned air space some no doubt will be on classified mission in which they would require radio silence.
The ADIZ is challenging in how the US military operates in the entire east Asian region as much as challenging Japan over the islands.

Um, the US can still do whatever missions it wants.

They'll just be escorted by PLAAF fighters once they enter well into the new ADIZ.

This is no different to how the US interacts with Russian bombers that enter its ADIZ, and no different to how JASDF treated PLAAF recon planes that have transited through its ADIZ.



The US may have been able to conduct missions without being challenged at all. Well that's going to change. They're still allowed to fly, they'll just have an eye kept on them. It's how the rest of the world operates, toughen up.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Ok, I see what you mean when you say playing chicken cards by all sides in Diaoyu islands, and there's some logic in your thoughts. But make no mistakes about it, it's great power games between two middle kingdoms (US and China), and Japan is a pawn. Should Japan become a liability rather of an asset, we'll treat it accordingly.
hahaha so now you are a policy maker hahaha
we will treat it accordingly i did not know you are a politician hahaha


You have no idea of Japan, Japan has 50 nuclear sites do you understand that if Japan is pushed they can become a nuclear power within months.

Are you aware that Japan has a stealth fighter program and the prototype is being built now?

that japan builds their own aircraft carriers some of which are really big and they did not even ask the US or Russia to buy scrap to make one.

The problem you do not understand is the odds we are playing, we are talking about a WWIII scenario, China won`t kick out the US from Japan niether the pacific.

China is raising the odds to look strong to test the US-Japan alliance and look strong, pushing the Japanese to see how serious are about the Islands but Japan still has a Naval presence in the dispute Islands and as long as they are there China does not gain any thing, If China declares no ship is allowed then that is really serious, but i am sure the JASDF will still fly there but China wants to press Japan.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Wrong! You obviously don't understand that the US is in Asia for our own interests. If it means backing Japan, then we will do it; if it means pulling a Syria, then we'll do that too.
wow you look very logic, so tell me Is the US going to leave Japan?
you are just fantasying, since is obvious Japan and the US are affected by this ID zone and the Japanese host a large force of US forces that the US uses not for air shows but for power projection, the only reason the US will try to keep a low profile is the possibility of WWIII, which no nation will win
 
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